Design advice on knockdown joint hardware needed

[starlingwood]

I'm a newbie so bear with me! I'm building a hefty 8x4ft workbench from ash with 6x 120x120 legs and 120x40 rails connecting them all. I would like to have knockdown joints on most of the joints however I'm not sure what to go with. The Festool domino 700 ones look perfect but I don't have a 700 right now and I don't see long term use from one so won't but. Then I've thought about cross dowels like you see with bed frames but don't want to see any hardware exposed on the external sides of the legs (maybe could use a plug?). I've also seen the zip fix which looks good and easy to install but is it too light duty? I want go be able to tension it up and it needs to be heavy duty and not visible from the external faces of the legs/rails. All advice welcome

 

[DBT85]

My boring redwood pine workbench is knockdown and doesn't need anything at all to hold it together. Its got a couple of screws and a few carriage bolts just a belt and braces but its fine without it. I had to dismantle the entire thing to move it from inside the house to the workshop last year.

It depends what kind of bench you're making of course. If like many you want a thick apron then just use a tapered housing for the leg and a wedge to hold it in place.

I'm guessing at 8x4 though you aren't making a more common handtool type bench though?

 

[TheTiddles]

6 legs on a bench?! I think you need to do a redesign, it’s way easier to redesign 50 times in your head than once after you’ve started cutting.

Embedded nuts can work, might not be as concealed as you desire but plenty strong enough. Tusk tenons and wedges are the traditional method.

How often are you planning to take it apart? You could compromise the entire thing for a feature that’s rarely used.

 

[Orraloon]

As said above there are a few ways of doing it. If we knew just what kind of bench you are aiming at it would be easier to advise.
A traditional woodwork bench is usually only about 2f wide so you can reach across it and just long enough to plane the longest bits of wood you will work with. Consider how much of your shed space it takes up and will there still be space to fit the other stuff and have room to work.
Anyhow I built a knockdown bench using regular nuts and bolts for the leg to long stretcher joints. Cross frames join legs with M&T joints so there are 2 gate like leg sections that then bolt to the long frames. Top screwed to gross frame by angle brackets. In the 8 years since I made it it's been apart and moved one time but I was really glad it was knockdown that day.
It would be good to look at some past bench builds on this and other forums for ideas. I suggest forums rather than social media as there tends to be a more practical approach.
Regards
John

 

[moosepig]

Why no exposed hardware? Seems an unnecessary constraint for what I presume is essentially 'shop furniture?

 

[starlingwood]

Its not a traditional woodworking bench I should have added. More of a general workbench. I need/want a big solid surafce it will have a table saw built in (a site saw) and a router too. Aesthetics are important to me and as a hobbyist I have time on my hand. Its a bench I want to last me decades, I dont want a bench made of studwork screwed together.

Im going to attempt to attach some PDFs of the CAD and sketch up files I have done.

 

[starlingwood]

 

[starlingwood]

One other thing that occurred to me last night was what is stopping me from buying the Festool 700 connectors and routing out the mortises with a regular router, I would need a 14mm cutter bit and a lot of patience setting up the cut, surely? I plan to make a couple of beds in the future too so the pack of 32 connectors will not sit and get lost in the workshop. Another one, would someone be interested in hiring me a 700 for a day?

 

[Doug71]

Would Zipbolts work, they are available in a few different styles for different applications. I have only ever used them on staircases but the are decent quality.

https://www.its.co.uk/pd/PPQT13.600...C5TQ3P_NM3JCgBR4FV7jxjNIuWci4TjsaArtVEALw_wcB

 

[DBT85]

Looks like you've put plenty of thought into what you have drawn up, though it will take better minds than mine to tell you if its going to work how you want it to (if that's even the insight you're after)

My thoughts are, would using a taller front apron with housings for the legs to fit into help prevent racking or will it not be an issue with a bench this size or with this current design.

As for hire of a Domino, it's an expensive lump for someone to just lend out. There is a place on the south coast that hires them out but no use for you.

Routing them with a router would be fine but are you talking about the regular dominos that you would glue or are you talking about the metal ones that are able to be taken apart easily.

Might you be over thinking a problem that is easily solved by just burying any hardware under the surface and plugging it? If you ever needed to get to the hardware just drill out the plug.

 

[Cabinetman]

As Orraloon said and as above nuts and bolts or as I have used, just threaded bar with nuts can be hidden into the framework you could have the hole where the nuts are facing inwards. This joined two large sections of an L shaped desktop together, a couple of brass locating pins (Sawn off screws) for accuracy and M12 stainless threaded bar. Ian

 

[TheTiddles]

It looks like the mass of your legs and frame will deform your top. It will also be a huge immovable object... you must have an enormous workshop.

I would like something similar, if I had the space it would either fold away or be on casters. I’d go for a metal frame either way, welded (which I’d ask someone else to do) or bolted together so I could take it apart if necessary. Then a full sheet on top that can be swapped out easily.

 

[Spectric]

Can a very large and heavy workbench really be classed as knockdown for portability. You do not say what type of woodwork you are looking at doing, for portability and site work you could make a much lighter and fully functioning workbench and then have the big heavy one in the workshop. There are workbench designs around that can deliver on both strength functionality and still portable, strength and rigidity can be achieved through design rather than heavy timbers.

This American design is good for getting one thinking, incorporating table saw and router table into it for site use, but more USA than UK as we just stick MDF trim into our new builds.

https://www.aconcordcarpenter.com/paulk-workbench-review.html
https://tsoproducts.com/plans-drawings/paulk-workbench-ii-with-router-table-plans/

 

[starlingwood]

Thank you for all your replies. At the moment I plan to make a single bed, a king size bed, TV cabinet, two matching bedside cabinets, another bedside cabinet, a chest of drawers, a gate, a garden bench and a shoe rack. I do have a cheapo traditional woodworking bench which is rubbish so I may need to add one of those to the list too. This large 8 x 4ft bench will have a carpenters vice and holdfast holes.

At the moment I don't foresee ever having to move it but I might and when and if that day comes I will be glad I used some knockdown. I dont the look of the zipbolts for this heavy application im leaning more towards the festool connectors (yes the metal and plastic connectors below) and cutting them in by hand without a festool 700.

 

[Coogi]

Can a very large and heavy workbench really be classed as knockdown for portability. You do not say what type of woodwork you are looking at doing, for portability and site work you could make a much lighter and fully functioning workbench and then have the big heavy one in the workshop. There are workbench designs around that can deliver on both strength functionality and still portable, strength and rigidity can be achieved through design rather than heavy timbers.

This American design is good for getting one thinking, incorporating table saw and router table into it for site use, but more USA than UK as we just stick MDF trim into our new builds.

https://www.aconcordcarpenter.com/paulk-workbench-review.html
https://tsoproducts.com/plans-drawings/paulk-workbench-ii-with-router-table-plans/

Hi, I am just thinking about building my first workbench. I mainly want to use it for smaller fine pieces (boxes, small pieces of furniture) but will also have to make some larger cabinets. I've seen this design and it looks great (and fairly easy to build without an existing extensive workshop).

My only issue is that there are no clamps on the side and all the guides I've seen so far for planing, cutting joints etc involve clamping to a face/tail vise. Would it be a case of just buying clamps to fix things in this manner or would I have to somehow fit a vise?

 

[Cabinetman]

Hi Coogi, you ought to watch this, he isn’t suggesting using a bench without a vice but he does show you all the best ways of holding wood to work on, one of the few Americans on YouTube that I rate. Ian

 

[Spectric]

Coming from a metalworking background before wood the vice was an essential item on my workbench but now with wood, things are somewhat different. It will depend upon your working practices but with wood it is all about joints and there are many, in metal you can just use a few tacks before welding and job done. Wood needs clamping, something I had not originally thought about but now realise clamps and more clamps are very important because wood behaves so differently and can change dimensionaly. So think about what you are looking to make and the types of joint you want to use, the workbench for me has become more of an assembly bench. I now have a bench that is just a bench but with solid edging on the rear & sides set to 90° corners. I have made a top that has some 20mm holes but is not fully drilled like an MFT and also have routed 14° dovetail slots that run front to back & side to side that accept the microjig clamps and fittings that allow me to both locate and clamp my work pieces very easily, this top is also replacable. It just sits on my workbench when needed, located by the edging and can be clamped which means that I still retain a flat bench without holes and slots for general use, no holes for things to fall through.
I also have a jawhorse that also comes in handy, this is portable, easily errected and easily stored but has come in very useful especially when doweling into the ends of rails or working on longer workpieces and also for drilling the pockets for pocket hole screws. So no bench vices, I have not even thought about fitting one and for me they would not be useful, probably get in the way. Looking back I think it was just accepted that a woodworkers bench had a wooden vice on it, I can remember them in the school woodworking shop back in the seventies but like everything things move on and people adapt but I think this image is retained . My jointing methods are Dowelmax, pocket holes and Domino's once I sort out some issues.

Jawhorse: JawHorse Sheetmaster Portable Work Support Station - Rockwell Tools

Microjig info: MATCHFIT Woodworking Jig and Fixture System | #1 Best-Seller in Jigs and Fixtures

Micro jig clamps and stuff from Micro Jig MATCHFIT Dovetail Clamps - Pair

Alloy dogs for 20mm holes: Bench Dogs Large x 2

and the stainless version: Quad Dogs™ 40mm - Pair

 

[MARK.B.]

Thank you for all your replies. At the moment I plan to make a single bed, a king size bed, TV cabinet, two matching bedside cabinets, another bedside cabinet, a chest of drawers, a gate, a garden bench and a shoe rack. I do have a cheapo traditional woodworking bench which is rubbish so I may need to add one of those to the list too. This large 8 x 4ft bench will have a carpenters vice and holdfast holes.

OK that's this weekend taken care off ,what are you making next week

 

[starlingwood]

Come back to me in 40 years and see how I'm getting on! I'm may be on to the double bed. It's good to aim for the stars