Deep(ish) Mortices For First Timer

[toolsntat]

What I would say is that having through mortices will give you extra resistance to the gate dropping and also will allow you to come in from both "gauged" edges which is a great way of having it all parallel with the face of the work.
Any minor discrepancies getting the two sides to line up will be inside the mortice.
Cheers, Andy

 

[Karl Jones]

What I would say is that having through mortices will give you extra resistance to the gate dropping and also will allow you to come in from both "gauged" edges which is a great way of having it all parallel with the face of the work.
Any minor discrepancies getting the two sides to line up will be inside the mortice.
Cheers, Andy

Thanks Andy - won't that expose the end grain of the tenon to the elements?

 

[toolsntat]

Thanks Andy - won't that expose the end grain of the tenon to the elements?

Yes, if no finish on the gate.
In any case, along with the (vertical ?) boards, the bottom of the stiles (vertical sides) would be first to go.
Just think by the time that happens you'll be a seasoned woodworker and able to put all that new kit to good use on a replacement....
Cheers, Andy

 

[jetsetwilly]

I had watched a few Paul Sellers videos and he makes morticing with a hand chisel look so very easy - I know that's because he's been working with wood for half a century so he's got that muscle memory you refer to (and a large slab of skill no doubt), but I did (do) fancy having a go.

In terms of chisels, I was thinking of these:

https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-rider-mortice-chisel-10mm-103312
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-rider-mortice-chisel-10mm-103312

And am I right in thinking that I should hone them with something like this too:

https://www.axminstertools.com/ice-bear-japanese-waterstone-combination-1-000-6-000g-510469

I like my Rider chisels, though I don't have their mortise chisel - mine are old Sorby ones from fleabay.

You've already found Paul Sellers and probably others, so you're off to good start - mortises are not that hard to chop entirely by hand if you follow a method carefully and take your time. Cheap treated softwood can be a bit spongy for chiselling though.

As for sharpening, you know not what you ask!

 

[Karl Jones]

I like my Rider chisels, though I don't have their mortise chisel - mine are old Sorby ones from fleabay. As for sharpening, you know not what you ask!

Yes - and having seen some other threads, I get the sense there might be blood on the carpet quite quickly!

 

[toolsntat]

You mentioned 10mm chisels for the job, best to be no less than 1/2" (12mm) on this type/size of work.
Cheers, Andy

 

[XTiffy]

I shall be posting a Draper benchtop mortiser BM13 with 1/2" chisel in the for sale section today. Though I will only be asking £110, the carriage might be a problem as it weighs in at around 35 Kg. Alternatively, I also have "proper" mortice chisels for sale (including a 1/2" one)!

 

[Chubber]

I had watched a few Paul Sellers videos and he makes morticing with a hand chisel look so very easy - I know that's because he's been working with wood for half a century so he's got that muscle memory you refer to (and a large slab of skill no doubt), but I did (do) fancy having a go.

In terms of chisels, I was thinking of these:

https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-rider-mortice-chisel-10mm-103312
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-rider-mortice-chisel-10mm-103312

And am I right in thinking that I should hone them with something like this too:

https://www.axminstertools.com/ice-bear-japanese-waterstone-combination-1-000-6-000g-510469

Oh that all looks lovely!

Here I go again......

When I started (believe me, I don't think I have 'finished' yet, every day is a school day still) I found mortice chisels difficult to sharpen square, easy to burn on a wheel trying to correct my upcocks and prone to twisting in the cavern I was creating. I'd have messed those up, for sure!

Shortly before our move to Scotland last month I was in a junk shop buying SWMBO's birthday present and in cardboard box marked 'All £1' was an old 1/2" mortice chisel with an oval handle and leather washer, still bearing that unmistakable patina of an old cared-for tool. I wanted to bring it home to a good place instead of sharing with rusty Surforms, bent screwdrivers and assorted unidentifiable rubbish.

That's what you need to practice with, both the excavating and the sharpening before you attack your new wood. Those Rider chisels are at the quality end of the market, and I bet you didn't learn to drive in a Rolls Royce. An ordinary combination oilstone will serve perfectly, too, until you become more choosy from experience, not the snake-oil charms of the catalogues.

(All above offered in a genuine wish to help you avoid the mistakes I made.)

Doug

 

[JSW]

Those Rider chisels are at the quality end of the market, and I bet you didn't learn to drive in a Rolls Royce.

Stored for future use.

 

[Karl Jones]

Oh that all looks lovely!

Here I go again......

When I started (believe me, I don't think I have 'finished' yet, every day is a school day still) I found mortice chisels difficult to sharpen square, easy to burn on a wheel trying to correct my upcocks and prone to twisting in the cavern I was creating. I'd have messed those up, for sure!

Shortly before our move to Scotland last month I was in a junk shop buying SWMBO's birthday present and in cardboard box marked 'All £1' was an old 1/2" mortice chisel with an oval handle and leather washer, still bearing that unmistakable patina of an old cared-for tool. I wanted to bring it home to a good place instead of sharing with rusty Surforms, bent screwdrivers and assorted unidentifiable rubbish.

That's what you need to practice with, both the excavating and the sharpening before you attack your new wood. Those Rider chisels are at the quality end of the market, and I bet you didn't learn to drive in a Rolls Royce. An ordinary combination oilstone will serve perfectly, too, until you become more choosy from experience, not the snake-oil charms of the catalogues.

(All above offered in a genuine wish to help you avoid the mistakes I made.)

Doug

You're right - Dad wouldn't let me near it. He was less fussed about his BMW 635 CSI though!!

 

[Jacob]

I had watched a few Paul Sellers videos and he makes morticing with a hand chisel look so very easy - I know that's because he's been working with wood for half a century so he's got that muscle memory you refer to (and a large slab of skill no doubt), but I did (do) fancy having a go.

In terms of chisels, I was thinking of these:

https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-rider-mortice-chisel-10mm-103312
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-rider-mortice-chisel-10mm-103312

And am I right in thinking that I should hone them with something like this too:

https://www.axminstertools.com/ice-bear-japanese-waterstone-combination-1-000-6-000g-510469

They are a bit lightweight compared to the trad chisel so maybe I wouldn't bother.
Proper mortice chisel and technique involve large mallet, large chisel, maximum force, workpiece sitting flat on bench top or trad saw horses, not in a vice as shown. Best for sharpening is a medium oil stone and freehand - particular for heavy usage as you need to touch up the edge a little and often. Norton IB8. And you need a well rounded bevel, for leverage, particularly in blind mortices. Also 1/2" or 5/8" for your purposes
It's another world compared to modern joinery! Perhaps not go there unless you really want to get into trad joinery.
Instead; Sellers technique is OK, or variations thereof, as per posts above.

Trad mortice chisel here. Ebay £15 which is typical price. Not enough rounded bevel on this one

 

[Chubber]

Stored for future use.

Not referring to your self, perhaps you have already got a licence?

 

[Chubber]

They are a bit lightweight compared to the trad chisel so maybe I wouldn't bother.
Proper mortice chisel and technique involve large mallet, large chisel, maximum force, workpiece sitting flat on bench top or trad saw horses, not in a vice as shown. Best for sharpening is a medium oil stone and freehand - particular for heavy usage as you need to touch up the edge a little and often. Norton IB8. And you need a well rounded bevel, for leverage, particularly in blind mortices. Also 1/2" or 5/8" for your purposes
It's another world compared to modern joinery! Perhaps not go there unless you really want to get into trad joinery.
Instead; Sellers technique is OK, or variations thereof, as per posts above.

Trad mortice chisel here. Ebay £15 which is typical price. Not enough rounded bevel on this one

View attachment 198111

You found the same cardboard box!

 

[Karl Jones]

Hi Andy

You mentioned 10mm chisels for the job, best to be no less than 1/2" (12mm) on this type/size of work.
Cheers, Andy

Thanks for that. I'd gone with the 10mm as I was presuming that the tenon on the 30mm thick rails would be 10mm. If the rails were bare faced tenons, would they say 50% of the thickness of the rail (so 15mm, the same as 1//3 of the 45mm frame)? It's all as clear as mud!

 

[Jacob]

You found the same cardboard box!

er... did you mean the Pandora's box of sharpening?
Morticing with a mortice chisel is about the heaviest work you'd ever do with any chisel and frequent freehand touch ups are essential, with oil stone ready on the bench all the time. Just a few 10 to 20 second goes at frequent intervals. Modern sharpening would be just too slow and time consuming. Come to think; as it is for most purposes.

 

[Jacob]

Hi Andy

Thanks for that. I'd gone with the 10mm as I was presuming that the tenon on the 30mm thick rails would be 10mm. If the rails were bare faced tenons, would they say 50% of the thickness of the rail (so 15mm, the same as 1//3 of the 45mm frame)? It's all as clear as mud!

It's the mortice in the stile which is supposed to be about 1/3 of the thickness, rounded off/up to nearest 1/4" or so. The rails, bare faced or otherwise, are tenoned to match the mortice.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Hi Andy

Thanks for that. I'd gone with the 10mm as I was presuming that the tenon on the 30mm thick rails would be 10mm. If the rails were bare faced tenons, would they say 50% of the thickness of the rail (so 15mm, the same as 1//3 of the 45mm frame)? It's all as clear as mud!

The general guidance when creating M&Ts in material all the same thickness is the rule of thirds. In this case your stuff is 30mm thick so 10mm is, as you say, a third. But then the rule suggests that you then generally go to the next chisel width up, so you'd normally choose a 12 or 13 mm wide chisel to cut the mortice.

The reasoning is that when joining two parts then to retain equal strength in both parts means removing 50% of the material for each. Obviously you can't do this with M&T joints so the logic goes that you should beef up the tenon a bit and similarly increase the width of the mortice to suit thus bringing the two parts slightly closer to the 50% removed from each guide.

There always exceptions, but that's the general guidance. On a side note, a similar rule of thirds guidance applies when setting out corner M&Ts, such as those at the top and bottom corners of doors. This guidance determines the width of the tenon and the length of the mortice indicating approximately how much wood to leave at the outside corner end of the mortice and how much to remove from the outer edge of the tenon.

In both cases the guidance is just that, a guide, and not a fixed unbreakable rule. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

The general guidance when creating M&Ts in material all the same thickness is the rule of thirds.

For the mortice. The tenon then to fit this.

 

[AJBaker]

Go for it! Making mortices by hand isn't easy, but it isn't too hard either. It's a great skill to have and opens up many possibilities.

Here are my tips:

• Prepare the stock properly. Make sure you have a true face and square edge without any twist. Proper stock preparation makes everything else MUCH easier, whereas poor stock preperation makes everything else more frustrating and imprecise as the inaccuracies stack up.
• Use a mortice gauge for marking out the mortice and the tenon, being careful to register on the reference face every time. Precise marking (also thanks to the well prepared stock) is a big part of the battle.
• Consider a through tenon. It exposes some end grain, but it's more precise as you're coming at it from two sides. If you happen to not be 100% plumb with your chisel cuts, it won't matter too much.
• Watch Paul Sellers explain how to do the chisel cuts. There's also a Rex Krueger video that explains the theory. Basically, avoid getting the chisel stuck, and work at removing a chunk of wood with every hit. The key is creating clearance, so that the waste has somewhere to go. Tricky at first, but soon becomes easy.
• Mortice chisels are nice, but for bigger mortices especially a bench chisel is fine (provided you're gentle with your tools).

In any case, I'm sure it'll be fine, good luck!

 

[RobNichols]

Ummm ... is this heretical but i don't think cutting mortises by hand is difficult at all. You don't even need a particularly special chisel. All the mortise chisels give you is the ability to go a bit harder and faster. If you take your time any standard chisel will do the job fine. I started out with a cheap set of Vaunt chisels and have cut a lot of mortises with them. To be honest I still use them fairly regularly even though I have quite a few "better" chisels.

My suggestions:

• Get a mallet. Cheap wooden one is fine. Your chisels will last a lot longer if you use one rather than a hammer, and its a nicer experience. Alternatively the Thor rubber faced hammers are great for this sort of work and won't break the bank. Use the harder head when cutting mortices.
• Get a chisel the width of the tenon/mortise you want to cut - or adjust the tenon width to the width of the chisel you have.
• Choose one side of tenon as your reference and concentrate of lining the edge of the chisel up against that one edge. That's a lot easier than trying to keep the chisel lined up within the lines on both sides of the mortice. It a lot easier to concentrate on just one reference line and the results are fine.
• Get some scrap wood and practice a few times until you are satisfied you can cut the mortises nicely.
• If you want a cheap sharpening stone I'd recommend the Rider 300/1000 diamond stones. IMO a good cheap starting sharpening solution. I think these cheap diamond stone are less hassle and easier to use than cheap water stones. You can upgrade and try other sharpening systems once you get into it. I still use the 300 side as my main coarse stone.
• The main failure cutting by hand is blowing out the sides of the mortise. IMO this is only a problem when cutting mortises in narrow boards - frames for panel cupboard doors for example. You can greatly reduce the risk by clamping the sides of the board around the mortise. Pony Jorgensen Handscrews are great for this sort of thing. However, for large mortises like you describe, the walls will be pretty substantial and it is much less likely you'll blow the sides out.