Customs declarations and brexit

[Phil Pascoe]

1/ I said that the EU has helped to keep the peace. I would have thought it obvious that it could only contribute to this since its creation.

It must have done as it didn't cause any wars. It certainly didn't stop any. It couldn't deal with a playground tiff.

 

[Doug B]

I’m beginning to wish I’d bid on Jacob’s oil stone

 

[RobinBHM]

The whole point of sovereignty is that it can't be shared - you either have it or you don't. It's akin to being a bit pregnant. Even the liar Heath in one of his more honest moments admitted giving it away.

Its a bit more nuanced than that

no country in the world has total sovereignty -only a completely isolationist state has that (even NK doesnt have it -it trades with China and has to suffer international sanctions)

as an EU member the UK made shared decisions -so sovereignty was shared

heres an example: as an EU member, the UK was able to negotiate and debate passporting rights for Euro trades. Now it has left, the UK is a rule taker

the UK has a basic free trade deal with the EU, it got a deal with no level playing field -you might argue that it has regained sovereignty. However the EU has the right to impose tariffs if the UK diverge on standards - so thats a loss of sovereignty.

 

[Jacob]

I think Im getting a migrane

It's probably "oppositional disorder" it shows up in many ways.
I think my wife has got it - it obviously hit a chord when I told her!

 

[Jacob]

I’m beginning to wish I’d bid on Jacob’s oil stone

You could have had it fer nowt Doug! Would have saved a lot of bother!

 

[Doug B]

You could have had it fer nowt Doug! Would have saved a lot of bother!

Perhaps when the Nelson’s open again

 

[sploo]

there is nothing in my post that could be described as "whinging"
it contains facts and evidence....I cant help it if those things are not positive.

Amazing really isn't it; how a group of conmen fornicate everything up by making promises they knew couldn't be delivered, but presenting the raw facts of their ineptitude is dismissed as whinging and being negative.

Meanwhile, many of those bungling anus holes are still effectively in charge (and continuing to bungle); but that's somehow ok, and/or we should be patient and give them time.

 

[Jonm]

[art of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be

You could have had it fer nowt Doug! Would have saved a lot of bother!

You set a hare running there.

 

[D_W]

I think Im getting a migrane

interesting.

 

[D_W]

It's probably "oppositional disorder" it shows up in many ways.
I think my wife has got it - it obviously hit a chord when I told her!

Wait, did you tell her she's got it or did you say you've got it? Telling an oppositional person that they may have a disorder is obviously going to be met with disagreement, and we don't want to encourage too much of that or you may be suspended which obviously would lead to diminished joy.

Telling someone who isn't oppositional generally results in "no chords", neither minor nor major, no suspension and nothing is diminished.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

there is nothing in my post that could be described as "whinging"
it contains facts and evidence....I cant help it if those things are not positive.


you only want hear positive things, great so let me ask you this: what is your positive solution to the Irish border issue.....
(but please note: solutions are only possible by understanding the problem)

I wasn't referring just to your post, I was referring to the general tone of the entire thread, dominated as it is by remain voters banging on about how terrible life is, how most politicians of the governing party are incompetent, incapable, mentally deficient, corrupt and heaven knows what else, how the country (if not the world) is going down the pan and has declined in the last (however long), and how it's all so UNFAIR!

As to NI, there were two options, given that the EU decided to 'protect its interests'. A customs border down the Irish sea, or a hard border on the island of Ireland. Which is the least worst option? Somehow, I suspect that a hard border would create even more problems than the current solution. So, we are where we are.

Apart from which, it's not down to me to produce solutions - I'm not in government, nor am I a civil servant or adviser to government. My involvement was to cast my vote in a referendum on whether the UK should remain a member of the EU, or leave., I cast my vote for leave, and if I had to again, I wouldn't change my mind, because I think the UK's prospects are better out than in, for reasons discussed so many times over the last five years that I can't be *rsed to repeat them.

Now, Robin - if you've got any other questions or comments, direct them at someone else. In my last comment, I said I wish I hadn't got involved in this thread, and would leave you all to enjoy your misery in peace.

This time, I mean it.

 

[Lons]

I agree, I wasn't suggesting those things were a result of Brexit.....I should have made that clear.

I was trying to put "flesh on the bone" to the claims that the UK is doing great....it clearly isn't, at least not for many people.

I am guessing Northumberland is a vote Leave area, so you maybe in a minority?

Yes I sort of guessed that Robin but maybe others didn't and yes I was in a minority but then we all were as those who voted for Brexit won! I said in the last Brexit thread that the reason I voted stay was purely because I felt it was far too late to leave as we had become too entrenched rather than because I liked the way the EU operates. The time to leave was missed many years earlier!

 

[RobinBHM]

As to NI, there were two options, given that the EU decided to 'protect its interests

I find it sad that Brexiters refuse to accept responsibility for NI border issue and instead blame the EU.

 

[MarkDennehy]

As to NI, there were two options, given that the EU decided to 'protect its interests'. A customs border down the Irish sea, or a hard border on the island of Ireland. Which is the least worst option? Somehow, I suspect that a hard border would create even more problems than the current solution. So, we are where we are.

No, that's simply not good enough.

The UK signed and ratified an international treaty, which we commonly refer to as the Good Friday Agreement. That bound the UK and Ireland into the collaborative approach to Northern Ireland. Then the UK decided on Brexit; so now you have NI out of the EU and Ireland in the EU. You can't demand that the EU not have a border and you can't just shred your committments to the GFA, unless you want to advertise globally that any trade agreement you sign isn't worth the paper it was printed on. So we have the impossible situation where you committed to have no border on the island of Ireland but also want to have a border with the EU. Your successive governments spent five years throwing out one attempted solution to this after another, and ran a five-year clock down during which time you had other voting opportunities where you could have called for a hold on all of this until a solution was found, yet now we're watching your countrymen petrolbomb their own buses and we're up to twelve nights of the worst rioting in the UK in 20 years. And quite a few of us in this country are worried that the UK riots might spread across the border, as they had a habit of doing in the bad old days. While your own government has ignored it and will now use the death of a royal to ignore it some more.

So I'm sorry, but "we are where we are" is just. not. good. enough.

You do not live in a vacuum, and while you are entirely free to make your own choices, creating a firestorm in someone else's home and washing your hands of it with "we are where we are" is not being a decent human being.

 

[RobinBHM]

No, that's simply not good enough.

The UK signed and ratified an international treaty, which we commonly refer to as the Good Friday Agreement. That bound the UK and Ireland into the collaborative approach to Northern Ireland. Then the UK decided on Brexit; so now you have NI out of the EU and Ireland in the EU. You can't demand that the EU not have a border and you can't just shred your committments to the GFA, unless you want to advertise globally that any trade agreement you sign isn't worth the paper it was printed on. So we have the impossible situation where you committed to have no border on the island of Ireland but also want to have a border with the EU. Your successive governments spent five years throwing out one attempted solution to this after another, and ran a five-year clock down during which time you had other voting opportunities where you could have called for a hold on all of this until a solution was found, yet now we're watching your countrymen petrolbomb their own buses and we're up to twelve nights of the worst rioting in the UK in 20 years. And quite a few of us in this country are worried that the UK riots might spread across the border, as they had a habit of doing in the bad old days. While your own government has ignored it and will now use the death of a royal to ignore it some more.

So I'm sorry, but "we are where we are" is just. not. good. enough.

You do not live in a vacuum, and while you are entirely free to make your own choices, creating a firestorm in someone else's home and washing your hands of it with "we are where we are" is not being a decent human being.

I think it would be fair to say the referendum didn't automatically mean a border issue in Ireland.

However those who voted for Johnson in 2019 directly voted for a Brexit that meant leaving the SM.

I do dislike this argument that the customs border between NI and EU....is the fault of the EU. But the reality is that there is an almost universal lack of understanding of the Single Market amongst Leavers....and that does tend to lead them to this blame game.



I must admit I had little understanding of the implications for Ireland, either politically, troubles or trade.....but those in the know have absolutely been saying it since 2016.

 

[sploo]

I wasn't referring just to your post, I was referring to the general tone of the entire thread, dominated as it is by remain voters banging on about how terrible life is, how most politicians of the governing party are incompetent, incapable, mentally deficient, corrupt and heaven knows what else, how the country (if not the world) is going down the pan and has declined in the last (however long), and how it's all so UNFAIR!

There's a wonderful irony there; given the tone of EU related comments that emanate from those who voted leave.

 

[Doug B]

People‘s votes are based on matters that concern them, the small picture as opposeed to the big picture if you are seriously suggesting folks who voted for Brexit should accept responsibility for the NI border is like saying everyone who voted for Thatcher should take responsibility for the decimation of coal mining communities when she shut the pits.
Whoever is elected is tasked with the jobs in hand, whilst the UK voted to leave it was down to BOTH sides to come up with workable arrangements & clearly both sides failed, blame lies at the their door not at the electorate, when you employ someone to do a job it’s not your fault if they do a poor job.

 

[partsandlabour]

The EU is not the centre of commerce on planet earth, if you are getting issues when dealing with them then find another source and perhaps at some point they will need to smooth things out when they realise that they are losing exports.

If I don't bring in what I need from the EU, where a distributor is based, my next choice is to import it from Taiwan by the container load. Not viable. The EU is a hub for international trade with the UK that we have now lost.

 

[Chris152]

People‘s votes are based on matters that concern them, the small picture as opposeed to the big picture if you are seriously suggesting folks who voted for Brexit should accept responsibility for the NI border is like saying everyone who voted for Thatcher should take responsibility for the decimation of coal mining communities when she shut the pits.

With the right to vote comes the responsibility of a vote's consequences. Obviously, many people seem to be too busy to even try to consider the bigger picture - presumably they're more concerned about watching the next episode of eastenders or whatever carp they get up to than spend the time and effort informing themselves. I don't see how lack of due diligence absolves us of responsibility for our actions.
The NI issue was flagged up long before we went down the route we've taken.

 

[sploo]

People‘s votes are based on matters that concern them, the small picture as opposeed to the big picture if you are seriously suggesting folks who voted for Brexit should accept responsibility for the NI border is like saying everyone who voted for Thatcher should take responsibility for the decimation of coal mining communities when she shut the pits.
Whoever is elected is tasked with the jobs in hand, whilst the UK voted to leave it was down to BOTH sides to come up with workable arrangements & clearly both sides failed, blame lies at the their door not at the electorate, when you employ someone to do a job it’s not your fault if they do a poor job.

Well, yes. Yes, they do have a degree of responsibility. That's the point of a vote.

And, having interviewed and employed tens of people over the years, I would respectfully say that if you think it's not your fault if you employ someone and they turn out to be bad then you really shouldn't be doing any recruitment!