Crunch time for the RO125 - help to decide?

[YorkshireMartin]

I've had the RO125 for about a year now. Orbital (rotex/geared) mode is great. It removes material brilliantly. The abrasives are great, long lasting and the process is pretty much dust free.

However, I'm just not able to overcome the swirl marks (more accurately, spirals) that occur in Random Orbital mode. I've tried everything I can think of and I have to say I'm pretty fed up.

Tonight was the most consistent occurrence yet. Black walnut slab. It's been hand planed so relatively smooth. I took it down to 120 grit first in orbital mode to handle a bit of tear out. No problems, but of course you get swirl marks, which need to be removed in random mode.

Suddenly I'm getting spirals. They look like coil springs. You can actually hear the tool making a different noise when it's doing them, it also jumps occasionally and/or whips itself out of position. Unfortunately this results in deep marks on the timber, so you have to start all over again. Incredibly frustrating.

I've heard about this before and various suggestions have been made such as how to hold the tool, letting it run in (mine has about 50 hours on it though), turning the vac down, supporting the hose properly. Nothing has worked.

These are very expensive bits of kit and I feel like returning it as unfit for purpose but I don't want to be too hasty.

What I wanted to ask was, given what I've said above, if it was you, would you return it and go for a Mirka, or ask Festool to look at it under warranty? They haven't really acknowledged theres a problem with this model, but it's been reported fairly frequently. Or should I do nothing and hand sand the swirl marks out....

Just can't decide whether to persevere or not. Truth be told, I can't find a single commercial grade sander that doesn't have similar complaints, yet I find it hard to believe that a cabinet maker would put up with this day in day out, not unless they were planning a very early retirement!

 

[Wuffles]

I know they say it's the best of both worlds, but the larger RO sanders aren't as good as a proper finish sander.

But first, we'll go over the questions that will be asked of you.

Paper type, vac setting, how much pressure are you placing on it, time spent in each mode, or are you just in small dot ROS mode?

 

[Racers]

Card scraper, or hand sand, I hate sanding noisy, dusty, and boring, so card scraper then wipe down with a scotchbrite pad between coats of Danish oil and jobs a good 'un.

Pete

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Card scraper, or hand sand, I hate sanding noisy, dusty, and boring, so card scraper then wipe down with a scotchbrite pad between coats of Danish oil and jobs a good 'un.

Pete

I've not done a single bit of research on scraping. I will now.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I know they say it's the best of both worlds, but the larger RO sanders aren't as good as a proper finish sander.

But first, we'll go over the questions that will be asked of you.

Paper type, vac setting, how much pressure are you placing on it, time spent in each mode, or are you just in small dot ROS mode?

Lets see.

Rubin 2 120, 1/3 or less - i've tried various, zero pressure supporting hose and nose, time in each mode erm - 50/50 as I do an orbital then RO per grit, usually. I've tried just using Random though, with the same results.

 

[Beau]

I also hate sanding and now use a scraper plane where possible. It's a Lie-Nielsen's No.112 and has saved me countless boring hours sanding difficult timbers. Still use a RO when working across joints with the grain going in different direction and never had a problem with swirls unless using very course grits with my Metabo.

 

[Wuffles]

Might try it with an interface pad (mirka are cheapest) to make sure it's not your pad that's got a wonk on it?

I used abranet before I sold my RO 150 and don't recall there being any swirls. I use the same on the ETS EC 150 that replaced it and there are definitely none.

Hard pad or soft or intermediate? Do you have another to try?

Post this on the FOG, I'm sure there are sorts of other ways it can be blamed on you and "definitely not the tool" :/

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Might try it with an interface pad (mirka are cheapest) to make sure it's not your pad that's got a wonk on it?

I used abranet before I sold my RO 150 and don't recall there being any swirls. I use the same on the ETS EC 150 that replaced it and there are definitely none.

Hard pad or soft or intermediate? Do you have another to try?

Post this on the FOG, I'm sure there are sorts of other ways it can be blamed on you and "definitely not the tool" :/

I've got a hard pad on there at the moment but I also have the one that came with it, which I think is an intermediate. Same with either pad. I'll look into those suggestions thanks. I'd heard of abranet but never used it.

One thing I have noticed, it seems to happen where the grain becomes denser, around knots and areas of figure. What makes me crazy is that the rest of the board is flawlessly sanded, so it must work, something is just upsetting its apple cart.

Here is the slab in question and the approximate locations of the spirals:

 

[Baldhead]

For hand sanding I use one of these,
http://www.axminster.co.uk/mirka-sandin ... n-ax851921
together with these,
http://www.axminster.co.uk/mirka-abrane ... m-ax851873
they may seem expensive but they last forever!
If you want to try card scrapers I can recommend these,
http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-supe ... ers-476257
to sharpen them I have this from Workshop Heaven,
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/ARN ... isher.html.
I must point out I have nothing to do with either Axminster Tools or Workshop Heaven, although I do seem to spend an awful lot of money with both!!!
HTH

Stew

 

[custard]

Tonight was the most consistent occurrence yet. Black walnut slab. It's been hand planed so relatively smooth. I took it down to 120 grit first in orbital mode to handle a bit of tear out. No problems, but of course you get swirl marks, which need to be removed in random mode.

Suddenly I'm getting spirals. They look like coil springs. You can actually hear the tool making a different noise when it's doing them, it also jumps occasionally and/or whips itself out of position. Unfortunately this results in deep marks on the timber, so you have to start all over again.

I use the Festool RO150, it's not my favourite sander of all time, but I've never experienced the problems you mention.

The only thing I can think of is, if you're working down through the grits, you wouldn't go 120 grit in orbital then 180 grit in random. You'd go 120 grit in orbital, then 120 grit in random, then 180 grit in random. In other words I'm wondering if the marks are actually a legacy from previous orbital passes?

Another thing is that sanding away tear out can be tricky, there's an overwhelming temptation to dwell longer on the torn out area, when you need to strictly take even passes over the entire component until the tear out is removed, otherwise you're excavating a depression in one area which will look terrible once the finish is applied.

ABW is a reasonably benign timber so there shouldn't be much tear out in the first place, but if there is and for whatever reason I chose to sand it away with a hand held sander, then I'd more likely start with a really coarse grit in random mode (using the hard pad that you have, that's very much a smart choice for furniture use), rather than a finer grit in orbital mode. I tend to only use orbital mode for really rough work like removing finishes. Maybe other woodworkers have a different routine but that's what works for me.

If none of this helps then absolutely get it back to Festool, you shouldn't be having these problems.

Good luck!

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I also hate sanding and now use a scraper plane where possible. It's a Lie-Nielsen's No.112 and has saved me countless boring hours sanding difficult timbers. Still use a RO when working across joints with the grain going in different direction and never had a problem with swirls unless using very course grits with my Metabo.

Can I ask what made you pick the 112 over the 85?

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Tonight was the most consistent occurrence yet. Black walnut slab. It's been hand planed so relatively smooth. I took it down to 120 grit first in orbital mode to handle a bit of tear out. No problems, but of course you get swirl marks, which need to be removed in random mode.

Suddenly I'm getting spirals. They look like coil springs. You can actually hear the tool making a different noise when it's doing them, it also jumps occasionally and/or whips itself out of position. Unfortunately this results in deep marks on the timber, so you have to start all over again.

I use the Festool RO150, it's not my favourite sander of all time, but I've never experienced the problems you mention.

The only thing I can think of is, if you're working down through the grits, you wouldn't go 120 grit in orbital then 180 grit in random. You'd go 120 grit in orbital, then 120 grit in random, then 180 grit in random. In other words I'm wondering if the marks are actually a legacy from previous orbital passes?

Another thing is that sanding away tear out can be tricky, there's an overwhelming temptation to dwell longer on the torn out area, when you need to strictly take even passes over the entire component until the tear out is removed, otherwise you're excavating a depression in one area which will look terrible once the finish is applied.

ABW is a reasonably benign timber so there shouldn't be much tear out in the first place, but if there is and for whatever reason I chose to sand it away with a hand held sander, then I'd more likely start with a really coarse grit in random mode (using the hard pad that you have, that's very much a smart choice for furniture use), rather than a finer grit in orbital mode. I tend to only use orbital mode for really rough work like removing finishes. Maybe other woodworkers have a different routine but that's what works for me.

If none of this helps then absolutely get it back to Festool, you shouldn't be having these problems.

Good luck!

Thanks custard.

What I normally do is use orbital then RO in 60-120 but all grades above that are RO only. Sorry, I wasn't clear on that.

I'm starting to wonder if grit is being left behind or something. Going to brush off the piece between grits. Not something I've tried before as I was lead to believe it wasn't necessary but seems to be sensible practice.

 

[custard]

I've got a Lie Nielsen 112 (assuming that's the bigger one), which I got a few years ago specifically for dealing with expensive burr veneers.

It's a nice tool (once you untangle the usage angle instructions, I'm convinced LN's recommendations are far from optimum) but personally I still find myself reaching for the Stanley 80 (or the Veritas alternative) which is a design that's served me well for forty years. The biggest problem with the 112 is that sharpening is really slow, and the irons are expensive so gang sharpening three or four blades is expensive. In a commercial workshop you want to move a bit faster than the 112 permits and with the 80 it's just bish bosh like a regular card scraper. If I was a luthier for example I could really see the benefit of the 112, but I'm a cabinet maker so the 80 delivers pretty much everything I want from a scraper plane at a fraction of the price.

Just my 2p's worth.

 

[Beau]

I also hate sanding and now use a scraper plane where possible. It's a Lie-Nielsen's No.112 and has saved me countless boring hours sanding difficult timbers. Still use a RO when working across joints with the grain going in different direction and never had a problem with swirls unless using very course grits with my Metabo.

Can I ask what made you pick the 112 over the 85?

It was the demonstrator at a show and pined Tom down to good price haha. To be honest I never researched it just went with what was in front of me. It's a great tool but I sharpen it completely differently to Lie-Nielson's instructions. It used to be a bit too subtle for my liking so now sharpen it like my old Stanley 80. It now takes perfect fine shavings with no breakout.

Edit.
Yes Custard is right in that it's not the quickest tool to sharpen and the Stanley with it's thin blade is quick but I never found the Stanley left such a perfect finish and it's oh so easy to leave a mark as you come off the end of the wood. The longer body on the 112 makes this far less of a hazard.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

This video was interesting I thought. Loved the use of a hammer for adjustment, right up my alley. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j342Bo_p1UU

 

[marcros]

Martin

It is the 112 that I have if you want to borrow/trial it for a few weeks.

mark

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I've got a Lie Nielsen 112 (assuming that's the bigger one), which I got a few years ago specifically for dealing with expensive burr veneers.

It's a nice tool (once you untangle the usage angle instructions, I'm convinced LN's recommendations are far from optimum) but personally I still find myself reaching for the Stanley 80 (or the Veritas alternative) which is a design that's served me well for forty years. The biggest problem with the 112 is that sharpening is really slow, and the irons are expensive so gang sharpening three or four blades is expensive. In a commercial workshop you want to move a bit faster than the 112 permits and with the 80 it's just bish bosh like a regular card scraper. If I was a luthier for example I could really see the benefit of the 112, but I'm a cabinet maker so the 80 delivers pretty much everything I want from a scraper plane at a fraction of the price.

Just my 2p's worth.

How are you sharpening the 112? I'm looking at the 85 and lie nielsen say to just use a 45 degree bevel on it. Is that not the case with the 112?

I'm seriously considering picking up a 4.5 and the 85. Since I learned how to properly sharpen, I'm finding I prefer the finish of a plane to sanding. I just feel I *need* to have a working sander of some description at least.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Martin

It is the 112 that I have if you want to borrow/trial it for a few weeks.

mark

edit: checked and they are all the stanley design i think. )

Thats brilliant Mark, if you're sure. I'd appreciate that a lot.

 

[marcros]

That's the kiddie!

 

[YorkshireMartin]

That's the kiddie!

Spot on, PM'd you