cost of quality planes and the best cheaper alternative ?

[big soft moose]

this isnt a dig at those who have lots of them, its a genuine question - what is it about the LN and clifton planes that make them so expensive, i mean yes they are very nicely engineered and shiny and polished etc but at the end of the day its only metal working , theres no electronics or owt.

I was in axminster high wycombe today and got to looking at the shiny tool porn that they very unsportingly have next to the checkout - an almost overwhelming temptation to say wait a minuite i'll have one of those too...

but jesus even a little one of those costs more than the morticer i just bought (even including the two sash cramps, ruler, bandsaw blade, glue, wax polish , and other things that I erm "needed" )

I have nasty feeling i'm going to wind up with one (or two, or three) eventually , but what is that i'll be paying so much for - are they personally forged at the foot of ygdradsil by Thor , then fettled by norse pixies or something

 

[George_N]

I think it is due to the quality of Materials that Mighty Thor uses and the pixies then do a lot of fettling.

 

[joiner_sim]

Could be to do with the quality of the steel?

 

[Karl]

BSM

You answer you're own question - the cost is in the materials and engineering/production and a somewhat limited market (although there are some on here who seem to be doing all they can to keep that market going :lol: ).

If you can, i'd get your hands on one of the quality planes out there and try it out - not sure that Axminster will allow you to do this at the checkout though :lol: Or maybe you have a forum member local to you who can show you?

Seriously - you can fettle old planes until you're blue in the face, but until you know how a decent plane works, how do you know whether you're doing a good job???

I have owned (and sold) quite a few of these decent planes, primarily bought second hand. If I hadn't, I wouldn't know which planes work for me, and whether a plane which I am fettling is working right. I recently acquired a Stanley Bedrock #6 and am in the process of giving it a good clean up. I am sure that when it is done it will perform just as well as the LN#6 which I owned and sold.

One final thought - one of my first purchases (and I bought this one from new) was a Clifton #7. I took the advice of a few forum members and bit the bullet, although the cost seemed excessive at the time. It is one purchase I have never regretted.

Cheers

Karl

 

[big soft moose]

BSM

You answer you're own question - the cost is in the materials and engineering/production and a somewhat limited market (although there are some on here who seem to be doing all they can to keep that market going :lol: ).

If you can, i'd get your hands on one of the quality planes out there and try it out - not sure that Axminster will allow you to do this at the checkout though :lol: Or maybe you have a forum member local to you who can show you?

Seriously - you can fettle old planes until you're blue in the face, but until you know how a decent plane works, how do you know whether you're doing a good job???

I have owned (and sold) quite a few of these decent planes, primarily bought second hand. If I hadn't, I wouldn't know which planes work for me, and whether a plane which I am fettling is working right. I recently acquired a Stanley Bedrock #6 and am in the process of giving it a good clean up. I am sure that when it is done it will perform just as well as the LN#6 which I owned and sold.

One final thought - one of my first purchases (and I bought this one from new) was a Clifton #7. I took the advice of a few forum members and bit the bullet, although the cost seemed excessive at the time. It is one purchase I have never regretted.

Cheers

Karl

I had a feeling that was going to be the answer , but man they are expensive - the number 5 i was admiring was £252 - Ive had cheaper cars !

I know they are very very nice , but i guess what i'm really asking is whether they are that much better than the cheaper models - I mean to take cars as an example ferarris are very very nice too , but if i want to go fast i can quite hapily do it in a MX5 for a fraction of the cost.

I totally get the buy cheap buy twice thing and i'm not considering some b and poo own brand tat, but what is it that makes a LN no 5 nearly two hundred quid more than a new stanley 5, and is it something that i will actually notice in use ?

if there is a real advantage then i'll readilly part with my hard earned , but if its just the cachet of having the "best" when the stanley would do as good a job , then i'll take the cheaper option and spend the difference on other tool porn or wood.

 

[Paul Chapman]

As others have said, better design, better materials and better engineering, which all lead to better performance. There really are significant differences between the high-end planes and the cheaper stuff.

And I don't accept that they are expensive - with reasonable care, they will last you a lifetime and you'll be able to leave them to your kids to use. I bet your morticer won't last that long :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[big soft moose]

As others have said, better design, better materials and better engineering, which all lead to better performance. There really are significant differences between the high-end planes and the cheaper stuff.

And I don't accept that they are expensive - with reasonable care, they will last you a lifetime and you'll be able to leave them to your kids to use. I bet your morticer won't last that long :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

fair point - but as a newly wed i have to watch the pennies (says the man who just spent a 160 quid on a morticer ), the thing is tho swimbo accepts that i need the morticer to build furniture ( yeah i know i could do it with chisels and a mallet but dont get me started on the cost of decent chisels - the morticer may well be cheaper) , but is less likely to accept the purchase of a LN 5 as essential.

If we take it as read that I dont have the money to buy a LN or clifton , whats the best budget make (using the term budget losely as i dont want some total crap, say no more than 100 notes)

 

[Paul Chapman]

If we take it as read that I dont have the money to buy a LN or clifton , whats the best budget make (using the term budget losely as i dont want some total crap, say no more than 100 notes)

I would go for second-hand Record. I picked up an excellent Record #05 Stay-set from a second-hand shop for about £25. It was an ex-school plane (it has LCC - London County Council - engraved on the side) and apart from some horrible green paint that had been slapped on it, was in first class condition. I use it regularly and it planes really well - didn't even have to flatten the sole.

It has the older style frog, which is good, pictured on the right in this shot

The Stay-set models have SS on the lever cap

And they use the two-piece cap irons like the ones fitted to Clifton planes. Some people don't like them but I reckon they are excellent.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[big soft moose]

If we were talking second hand ive got a stanley no4 and a record no 5 that were my grandads (circa 1950s i think) but they are in rag order , and mixed up in pieces and it may beyond my ken to put them together and fettle them into working order - ive also got a block plane that was his which is missing its blade and the wedge thing.

This is also my concern with buying other planes second hand as i dont know enough about them to fettle them, or for that matter to tell a good one from a bad one.

Therefore i want to just buy a decent but not excessively expensive one to use and learn with so that i can improve my skills and hopefully one day be able to return the three of my grandas to working order too.

so to refine the question what would you guys buy new , with a max budget of £100 notes.

 

[joiner_sim]

Hand planes wise, I've got a Stanley Bailey no.4, review can be found on my website. It's pretty good once it has been fine tuned, but it did take a while to get there!
I've also got a 1950's Record No.6 foreplane I was given, rusted up. Cleaned it all up and it works beautifully, if you search the handtools forum, you might find the topic i made about it on here.

 

[Paul Chapman]

so to refine the question what would you guys buy new , with a max budget of £100 notes.

Knowing what I know now (having been buying planes since 1970), if you want new I'd save up for a bit longer until I could afford a Clifton. You might strike lucky and buy a cheap new plane that works well but the chances are it will have been made in China and won't be very good. However, others may have a different view.

Have a look at this site - they seem to have some good, old Record and Stanley stuff at reasonable prices http://www.oldtools.co.uk/ If you bought something from them and it was no good, you could always send it back.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Mikey R]

I would always buy second hand planes from Ray Iles, with one of his O1 steel blades, which he would fit for you. All his bench planes have been reground, and work straight out of the box.

A Stanley no 5 / Record 05 would cost you £30 plus about £25 for the new blade, plus VAT and postage. Way under £100

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

They serve a very much needed purpose: namely to give the better half and your kids something to buy for you on all those holidays when they feel compelled to do so!

I got along perfectly fine with the vintage Stanleys I have, but it is nice to have the Clifton and the multiple LNs & Veritas planes that fill my shop. Much nicer than the shirts and jackets I used to get!

T.Z.

 

[Vann]

- I mean to take cars as an example ferarris are very very nice too , but if i want to go fast i can quite hapily do it in a MX5 for a fraction of the cost.

Trouble is, your Ferarris is more like a Hotley/Norris. The Clifton is like a good Toyota. The less than 100 quid cheapy is a Skoda or Lada.

If your skills aren't up to fettling an old Stanley/Record then they won't be up to fettling a new Stanley/Irwin Record/Anant/Axminster special. The newer planes will most likely require more (not less) fettling than an old Record/Stanley.

You're caught between a rock and a hard place. I'd suggest you save for a decent Clifton/Veritas/Lie-Nielsen (okay not the latter - they're even more expensive), then do up some old Stanleys/Records (such as your grandad's) using you new Clifton/Veritas performance as a benchmark.

You might be able to purchase a good pre-fettled oldie off someone on this forum, or someone like Ray Isles.

I think a large part of the reason these brands are so expensive is that Clico, Lee Valley and TLN pay their employees real money (like we expect to get in our pay packets) not a bowl of rice a day. Hopefully, in turn, those employees have pride in their workmanship and this is reflected in the quality of the plane you buy.

I'll shut up and go away now... :roll:

Cheers, Vann.

 

[newt]

All the right things have been said about why they are expensive. If you only ever plane shed pine don't bother, but if you are into some hard woods with a bit tricky grain, then try using a really cheap B&Q plane , then a really good one

 

[beech1948]

I have come to believe that LN/LV and Clifton are now very overpriced. There is little of real value in them.

Remember that older craftsmen used Stanley and Record to produce some excellent and very outstanding furniture. Its not the tool its the man maybe.

I have Stanley planes, some Records and a few LN/LV specialty planes. I have used the LN bench planes and they are excellent but they do not produce a better final finish than a Stanley.

Stanley and Record used planes may take some fettling but that is how you will learn what makes up a plane, how they work and what works best for you.

regards
Alan

 

[wizer]

Pete, my first Plane was a re-con No.4 that MarkW kindly gave me. Until then I'd never considered hand planes seriously, taking the same view as you. Once I started using that No.4 I realised what a plane should be like but also realised it's inherent faults. So when selecting my next plane (A Veritas BUS) I knew what I wanted. My point being, get yourself a low end plane to start with, maybe one of the new Stanley SH planes and learn what it is you need from a HP. I've not progressed further than the smoother as this is all I want to use a hand plane for. Nothing wrong with using machinery.

 

[Mikey R]

Just thinkiing out loud...

If I were thinking of getting a lot of planes in the near future, I might also considder going on the David Charlesworth hand tool fettling course.

The course is £600 for the week, so if I were to be buying three planes at £200 I could save that money, pay for the course, then tune up some flea market bargains when I get home

 

[matt]

I was in axminster high wycombe today and got to looking at the shiny tool porn that they very unsportingly have next to the checkout - an almost overwhelming temptation to say wait a minuite i'll have one of those too...

That was me 2 days earlier...

They look great and I've no doubt they are better engineered than the like of Record and Stanley but what does that engineering mean to the job of planing?

I rescued and Stanley 5.5 from eBay and messed around getting it fit for purpose. I'm still fettling but it seems to be doing a reasonable job. That said, I don't do a lot of planing. I mostly use a block plane to fit doors and smooth the cut from the bandsaw if necessary.

 

[big soft moose]

but what does that engineering mean to the job of planing?

thats what i was getting at , i have no doubt that the expensive planes are better made and from higher quality materials (tho to an extent we may also be paying for the name) but although loads of people have said that they are better , i still dont know what practical difference it makes to the job at hand.

I guess better quality steel in the blade will mean that it holds its edge longer , but whether thats a noticeably longer may be another question.