Coronavirus

[Andy Kev.]

"Russia has been working hard to create division in the West and its been successful in the UK."

I think this translates roughly as, "A referendum and an election didn't go the way I like, two facts with which I can't cope because according to all the theory I've ever understood, once the masses understand what people like me are on about they will come flocking to our banner in their millions. Because I can't cope I need an explanation and the Russian bear provides me with one."

Now let's take a slightly more grown up, slightly less hysterical view of current affairs.

Division i.e. difference of opinion is a natural part of human affairs. People are heterogenous and so societies inevitably exhibit a degree of pluralism. The political systems of societies have to be able to cope with that pluralism. If you look at history, there seem to be two broad approaches of coping strategy:

a. Stamp on pluralism. Absolute monarchies, dictatorships, socialism, fascism. They all fail in the end. That doesn't mean that they don't reappear or try to reappear. Dictatorships and socialism seem to be the most politically vampiric i.e. undead but very bad for humanity as they will keep trying to make comebacks.

b. Embrace the fact of pluralism and have a system that can cope with it. The best system which so far has emerged to this end is democracy, bringing with it as it does freedom of speech, opinion etc. etc.

Don't like the clowns who are governing you? Not a problem: persuade other people of your stand point and if you can do that well enough, at the next election they are on their way out. Thus we can do away with the idea of revolution (violent or otherwise) because we can change governments without having to pick up rifles.

Democracy makes few demands of a nation state: governments must submit themselves to the electorate after a certain period in office and often before that period is up. Elections must be conducted in an uncorrupt way and the ballot must be secret. All must abide by the result of the election.

You, RobinBHM, clearly cannot manage the latter which in my opinion makes you a bit of a disgrace and I'm mightily glad that it is highly unlikely that people like you will ever get the upper hand in our country. And the reason that you won't get the upper hand is that democracy has become so deeply rooted in the UK that the people can be more or less said to have an instinct for it. That said, it is famously a delicate flower and it must be protected and if necessary fought for. "All that is necessary for evil to prosper is that men of good will do nothing."

 

[DrPhill]

View of the governments response. I am not sure that I am in a position to agree or disagree, because most information I have been given is likely biased. But this is just one more plausible explanation. People at the top are planning for politics after the virus......
The coronavirus letter you’ve just been sent by Johnson is a lie

 

[Trainee neophyte]

"Russia has been working hard to create division in the West and its been successful in the UK."

I think this translates roughly as, "A referendum and an election didn't go the way I like, two facts with which I can't cope because according to all the theory I've ever understood, once the masses understand what people like me are on about they will come flocking to our banner in their millions. Because I can't cope I need an explanation and the Russian bear provides me with one."

Now let's take a slightly more grown up, slightly less hysterical view of current affairs.

Division i.e. difference of opinion is a natural part of human affairs. People are heterogenous and so societies inevitably exhibit a degree of pluralism. The political systems of societies have to be able to cope with that pluralism. If you look at history, there seem to be two broad approaches of coping strategy:

a. Stamp on pluralism. Absolute monarchies, dictatorships, socialism, fascism. They all fail in the end. That doesn't mean that they don't reappear or try to reappear. Dictatorships and socialism seem to be the most politically vampiric i.e. undead but very bad for humanity as they will keep trying to make comebacks.

b. Embrace the fact of pluralism and have a system that can cope with it. The best system which so far has emerged to this end is democracy, bringing with it as it does freedom of speech, opinion etc. etc.

Don't like the clowns who are governing you? Not a problem: persuade other people of your stand point and if you can do that well enough, at the next election they are on their way out. Thus we can do away with the idea of revolution (violent or otherwise) because we can change governments without having to pick up rifles.

Democracy makes few demands of a nation state: governments must submit themselves to the electorate after a certain period in office and often before that period is up. Elections must be conducted in an uncorrupt way and the ballot must be secret. All must abide by the result of the election.

You, RobinBHM, clearly cannot manage the latter which in my opinion makes you a bit of a disgrace and I'm mightily glad that it is highly unlikely that people like you will ever get the upper hand in our country. And the reason that you won't get the upper hand is that democracy has become so deeply rooted in the UK that the people can be more or less said to have an instinct for it. That said, it is famously a delicate flower and it must be protected and if necessary fought for. "All that is necessary for evil to prosper is that men of good will do nothing."

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson

The US Constitution was written by terrorists/revolutionaries/freedom fighters, which is why they went with the 2nd amendment, second only to freedom of speech. They were convinced that, at some point, their shiny new Republic would return to a despotic form of government, and "The People" would need to take up arms to sort it out. Hence the gun ownership that all other nations consider eccentric bordering on insane. Ironically the USA has about the most corrupt form of government you can have and still be classed as a "democracy", so that all went swimmingly well.

There is a sudden desire in most western countries to blame the Chinese for the outbreak. This is a concerted effort, and is basically propaganda to shift blame from incompetent government, and also to ramp up the hate, because who doesn't like a good war? Here's a fun quote attributed to Herman Goering:

Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

I don't know if he said it or not, but it is a fair estimation of how the system works. The important bit is "All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."

Do a search, using the search engine of your choice for "China Covid19 lies", and make sure you set the result to show the last 24 hours. There is a definite push to create a narrative, so we can have our 1984 style "2 minutes of hate".

Having waded through the vitriol, have a look at
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/04/c ... .html#more

It's another view.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

View of the governments response. I am not sure that I am in a position to agree or disagree, because most information I have been given is likely biased. But this is just one more plausible explanation. People at the top are planning for politics after the virus......
The coronavirus letter you’ve just been sent by Johnson is a lie

Japan, Russia, South Korea, Taiwan all border/are next door to China, and yet have much better approach and outcomes than the west, despite much higher levels of contact. What did they do differently to Europe and USA? If the Chinese lied about everything, how come the neighbours knew what to do? How come the best, most sophisticated intelligence network in the world (Five Eyes) completely failed to find out what was going on in what is ostensibly a competitor nation, that we don't like very much?

And then there is this sleaziness: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dianne ... sh-reports

Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California and three of her Senate colleagues reported selling off stocks worth millions of dollars in the days before the coronavirus outbreak crashed the market, according to reports.

The data is listed on a U.S. Senate website containing financial disclosures from Senate members.

(It's Fox News, so it must be true!)

 

[MikeG.]

......I'm hoping my wife doesn't die.........

Me too. She's really not well.

Hope she makes a full recovery Mike .......... sounds awful.

Thanks Bob. Yes, it is......

 

[Andy Kev.]

TN:

The US Constitution was written by terrorists/revolutionaries/freedom fighters, which is why they went with the 2nd amendment, second only to freedom of speech. They were convinced that, at some point, their shiny new Republic would return to a despotic form of government, and "The People" would need to take up arms to sort it out. Hence the gun ownership that all other nations consider eccentric bordering on insane. Ironically the USA has about the most corrupt form of government you can have and still be classed as a "democracy", so that all went swimmingly well.

The US revolution happened because they were denied one of the essentials of democracy and they summed up their grievance as "No taxation without representation." They've not had a revolution since. I'm afraid that their gun laws are their business and as long as enough people don't want a change, they will stay. I'm not sure how corrupt their govt. is (although clearly a lot of dodgy things go on) but what bothers me more is how they conduct their presidential elections. No money = no candidacy. If I were American I would campaign for presidential electoral campaign budgets to be limited to $1,000,000 per candidate.

All that said, their system has meant a lot of prosperity for them, at least in national terms.

There is a sudden desire in most western countries to blame the Chinese for the outbreak. This is a concerted effort, and is basically propaganda to shift blame from incompetent government, and also to ramp up the hate, because who doesn't like a good war?

China can't be blamed for the fact of the virus but it can be blamed for its initial response which was typical of totalitarian governments, as were the subsequent counter measures (as I posted a few pages back). We have adopted a modified form of the latter but at least we can be sure that they are an emergency-only exception. China probably does represent a danger for the world. It is a rising empire and one day it will fall but how to limit the damage it will do in the meantime? Economic measures will probably be the best answer. I've been alarmed by China for some years and all along western govts. have been saying that we should snuggle up to them, a policy which IMO is only asking for trouble.

 

[FatmanG]

as far am i'm aware China has never waged a war against anyone else i'm sure to be corrected if thats wrong. They strike me as intelligent hard working people who offend very few and just get on with their own business. there are enough people in china to overthrow the system if they wished. it strikes me as the criticism of them from the u.s.a etc is jealousy and fear because they are no longer the big man country and they fear a russian - chinese alliance. its always been that way. personally i think the world has more to fear from the usa than from china.
the chinese govt made a mistake trying to cover the initial problem up however they have made up for it somewhat by cracking the genetic code of the virus and sharing with the world.

EDIT: I would rather china find the cure than the US as the big pharma companies will charge the absolute earth for it and cost the NHS far more than anything else

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Reading some of the recent posts a few thoughts come to mind.

Firstly, had the Tories had any intention of privatising or dismantling health care in the UK they would have made far greater progress by now. They have been in government for the last 10 years, and for 17 out of the previous 30 back to the Thatcher era.

They want to be elected (as all parties do) and know the NHS as a concept is highly valued by the public. So suggesting it is "soldoff" would be a complete vote loser. There may be a limited number at the top of the financial tree - but most Tories value the NHS. To suggest otherwise is to cynically use the NHS as a political point scoring exercise.

Remember that it has to be done covertly; precisely because it would be a vote loser. Much progress has been made, but a major technique is to break something to the degree that people demand it be fixed - then you can finish selling it off as a solution.

This isn't tinfoil hat stuff; there's plenty of information around about the creeping privatisation of NHS services, and to where some of the contracts are going.

The process of 'hollowing out', if you want to call it that, is most self-evident when you look at NHS dentistry....

 

[Andy Kev.]

as far am i'm aware China has never waged a war against anyone else i'm sure to be corrected if thats wrong. They strike me as intelligent hard working people who offend very few and just get on with their own business. there are enough people in china to overthrow the system if they wished. it strikes me as the criticism of them from the u.s.a etc is jealousy and fear because they are no longer the big man country and they fear a russian - chinese alliance. its always been that way. personally i think the world has more to fear from the usa than from china.
the chinese govt made a mistake trying to cover the initial problem up however they have made up for it somewhat by cracking the genetic code of the virus and sharing with the world.

With all due respect I would suggest that you may wish to adopt a slightly more differentiated approach when thinking of China.

I'm sure that the Chinese people have a range of virtues and vices to match those of any other cultural grouping anywhere in the world i.e. they're probably not too much different from anyone else.

However, China as a nation is effectively a wholly owned subsidiary of the Chinese Communist Party, a fact which instantly makes it clear how difficult if not impossible it would be for the Chinese people to overthrow the system if they wished. Add to that the fact that the approach pursued by the party has in recent decades led to a considerable improvement in living standards for many Chinese and that it also identifies itself as a patriotic force. This means that it will be quite a while until it is overthrown but if history teaches us anything, that day will probably come

The Chinese have never enjoyed the freedoms that democracy brings and it would be interesting to see what they would make of their country. As it is, the country i.e. the CCP is utterly ruthless and driven solely by selfish gain flavoured with a bit of imperialism e.g. claiming the South China Sea as sovereign waters and even going to the extent of creating artificial islands to support that claim.

One of the cleverest propaganda victories of recent years is IMO the degree to which anti-Americanism has been on the rise particularly in European countries. FWIW I think the roots of that are in France (de Gaulle has a lot to answer for in historical terms) but naturally it serves the interests of other countries too. Trump may in his own way as big a *** as de Gaulle was in his way but the USA is ultimately on the side of all the liberties which have so long been struggled for and which can be traced back to the signing of Magna Carta.

 

[RobinBHM]

TN wrote:

Japan, Russia, South Korea, Taiwan all border/are next door to China, and yet have much better approach and outcomes than the west, despite much higher levels of contact. What did they do differently to Europe and USA? If the Chinese lied about everything, how come the neighbours knew what to do?

The neighbours knew what to do because they learnt from SARS 1.
Also those countries acted fast.

President Xi phoned Boric on 16th Feb and told him what he had to do. That advice wasnt acted on.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I think the title of this thread should be changed to something that more accurately reflects what is has become due to the balance of the posts. How about "Critique of worldwide political systems and who can we blame" or we could just have "Competition for who can have the last word on something that doesn't matter at the current time"?

In the meantime my heart goes out to those of you who are currently impacted beyond inconvenience with Covid19 i.e. with loved ones ill, the worry of being in a high risk group, needing to keep a business afloat and/or with friends/family on the front line (whether it's right to call them a hero or not!).

 

[FatmanG]

as far am i'm aware China has never waged a war against anyone else i'm sure to be corrected if thats wrong. They strike me as intelligent hard working people who offend very few and just get on with their own business. there are enough people in china to overthrow the system if they wished. it strikes me as the criticism of them from the u.s.a etc is jealousy and fear because they are no longer the big man country and they fear a russian - chinese alliance. its always been that way. personally i think the world has more to fear from the usa than from china.
the chinese govt made a mistake trying to cover the initial problem up however they have made up for it somewhat by cracking the genetic code of the virus and sharing with the world.

With all due respect I would suggest that you may wish to adopt a slightly more differentiated approach when thinking of China.

I'm sure that the Chinese people have a range of virtues and vices to match those of any other cultural grouping anywhere in the world i.e. they're probably not too much different from anyone else.

However, China as a nation is effectively a wholly owned subsidiary of the Chinese Communist Party, a fact which instantly makes it clear how difficult if not impossible it would be for the Chinese people to overthrow the system if they wished. Add to that the fact that the approach pursued by the party has in recent decades led to a considerable improvement in living standards for many Chinese and that it also identifies itself as a patriotic force. This means that it will be quite a while until it is overthrown but if history teaches us anything, that day will probably come

The Chinese have never enjoyed the freedoms that democracy brings and it would be interesting to see what they would make of their country. As it is, the country i.e. the CCP is utterly ruthless and driven solely by selfish gain flavoured with a bit of imperialism e.g. claiming the South China Sea as sovereign waters and even going to the extent of creating artificial islands to support that claim.

One of the cleverest propaganda victories of recent years is IMO the degree to which anti-Americanism has been on the rise particularly in European countries. FWIW I think the roots of that are in France (de Gaulle has a lot to answer for in historical terms) but naturally it serves the interests of other countries too. Trump may in his own way as big a *** as de Gaulle was in his way but the USA is ultimately on the side of all the liberties which have so long been struggled for and which can be traced back to the signing of Magna Carta.

With all due respect Andy your view of the USA may need to be adopted. Their political system is not really a choice either. China you have the CCP in the U.S you have democrats or republicans. The candidates you have to choose from are only there because of the money they have backing them and who is behind the money. As far as I can see China has done very little to hurt the world. They are hard working innovative people. History is littered with U.S led wars, propagandas and deceptions. The USA is a big bully imo and now it has opposition as a true economic force with a army and array of weapons to match they dont like it. I see Chinese investment throughout the UK Scunthorpe, Sunderland,Sheffield,HInkley,5g etc etc while the Chinese strive to improve technology and industry the US has lost its way and are no longer the power that it thinks it is, the blame game is possibly a smokescreen to shield this fact from its own people.

 

[nev]

STOP.

1.woodworking forum
2.politics
3.pointless
4.woodworking forum.

 

[FatmanG]

I think the title of this thread should be changed to something that more accurately reflects what is has become due to the balance of the posts. How about "Critique of worldwide political systems and who can we blame" or we could just have "Competition for who can have the last word on something that doesn't matter at the current time"?

In the meantime my heart goes out to those of you who are currently impacted beyond inconvenience with Covid19 i.e. with loved ones ill, the worry of being in a high risk group, needing to keep a business afloat and/or with friends/family on the front line (whether it's right to call them a hero or not!).

Im surprised its still being allowed t go on mate. I thought politics was banned. I posted previously this thread has turned into "COVID19 Who can we blame" some of the stuff posted on this thread has been shameful imo especially the they knew what they signed up for comments.

 

[Andy Kev.]

STOP.

1.woodworking forum
2.politics
3.pointless
4.woodworking forum.

A timely reminder.

It's going to be difficult to police though because as soon as someone mentions government policy (the mentioning not being a political thing) it will attract a usually political response. There are simply too many political axes to grind. If, as an exception and this is almost as exceptional as the B word, a thread for the politics of the virus were to be established as a one off, those of us who are more interested in the virology and the practicalities of dealing with it but who have difficulty in not rising to the political bait, would be able to continue the discussion as originally intended while not going into the political thread. I know I wouldn't.

 

[nev]

Its quite simple really.
If you want to discuss what you are doing about the current situation, your situation, how it is affecting you then please carry on.

If you want to talk pointlessly about who is to blame , who is doing or not doing what, what should have been done (in your experience as the leader of a country) then take it elsewhere. That is just a pointless attempt at proving your knowledge and opinion is better than everyone else's and does nothing but wind people up.

 

[RogerS]

Very well-researched piece on TV this morning regarding home deliveries. Basically forget being over-70. Forget it if you have mild asthma. You need to have one of these illnesses to qualify and this website is the ONLY route to getting on the supermarket priority list for home deliveries.

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus-extremely-vulnerable

 

[Rorschach]

STOP.

1.woodworking forum
2.politics
3.pointless
4.woodworking forum.

Agree with point 2.
However this is the off topic part of the forum, so being pointless and not about woodworking is kind of the point

 

[nev]

and there's always someone

STOP.

1.woodworking forum
2.politics
3.pointless
4.woodworking forum.

Agree with point 2.
However this is the off topic part of the forum, so being pointless and not about woodworking is kind of the point

 

[stuartpaul]

......I'm hoping my wife doesn't die.........

Me too. She's really not well.

Quite. Had the paramedics out to my wife last night.

I keep hoping for an improvement but it's awfully slow in coming.