Coronavirus

[FatmanG]

Rorschach, you need to just slow down and take a deep breath. If a mate of yours in a pub said "that fool deserves a bullet between the eyes", how would you react? Would you assume he was talking literally, and that it was only the fear of being caught that stopped him from murdering the said individual, or would you understand immediately that this was a figure of speech?

Now, if you think the former, please ring up the police and report Roger. His surname is easily available, and the post which so offended you is still available here as evidence. Go on, put your morals to the test...ring them and report this crime (as you see it).

Or you could take the rational approach of understanding that using hyperbole is standard every day stuff. You yourself will use a figure of speech, an idiom, a phrasal verb, before your mid morning tea break, I promise you. It serves your purpose, for some reason I can't fathom, to allow different standards for yourself than you do for others with regards to figures of speech, and whatever you think of Roger it doesn't reflect well on you to deliberately mis-represent the nature of someone's words.

I understand hyperbole and I agree, there are things said in conversation that people do not necessarily condone. Had Roger actually said that though, or has he confirmed that he does indeed think this suitable? And not just Roger, others here have said the same. Hyperbole when saying an off the cuff remark is one thing, taking the time to write it out and then confirm it again is another.
I do appreciate your remarks though and trying to bring some sensibility but at the moment I believe you to be wrong and I think those people really do mean it, I hope that isn't the case.

As to my own differing standards, could you be more specific as to where you think I was being hyperbolic? I am not to proud to clarify my statements or retract them where I might have gone too far. I know I am not a perfect moral arbiter, far from it, they are only opinions after all and subject to change.

He may have been agreeing or remarking on one of my posts.

however let ME make one thign absolutely clear - I would actually really and truly do it.

It's clear to me that you and many other readers have never been a victim - and I don't mean a victim of something minor I mean being subjected to the craven depravity of a familial sex offender, or the wilful beatings of a rage fueled parent, or utterly neglected and ignored by a stepmother, or the target of teachers scoring points off you to gain favor with the rest of the class, saying things that in todays world would get them arrested and charged - and many others like burglery and rape.

you can scoff and think this is hyperbole and I truly with with my entire soul it was - but it isn't.

I KNOW the pain, the destruction and LIFETIME consequences caused by the wilful acts of a destructive human being - and if they are infected with corona or something else and wilfully try to infect another - "destructive human being" is what they are and need to be treated like the virus they carry.

you do not know what it's like to wear my shoes, and the shoes of people who have been subjected to and died from - eithe directly or via suicide - the sick acts of other human beings.

I'm telling you this "too much information" because until you've experienced this - you cannot KNOW the cost, and any viewpoint you have on it is null. Meaningless, less than informed drivel, just as it is about all those who keep saying "we should invade XYZ and sort them out" - ask any solider who's seem real combat how he feels about other people spending the lives of his comrades.

As politely as I can, you are clueless, because if you weren't you'd NEVER say such drivel.

You want to talk about "topsy turvey" - lets talk about how parents try to instill in thier children certain behavioural characteristics - like not swearing, or stealing or any number of socially unacceptable things - how do most of them acheive this?

deterrants.

most of us then become meaningful members of society, using these baselines given to us by OUR parents to guide our lives, and further by the guidelines of the local social mores.

if parents are allowed to give WORKING DETERRANTS for thier children, and thus to enact more stringent deterrant when those do not work, why are we not allowed to enact EVEN MORE stringent when THOSE do not work?

rape still happens, sex crimes still happens, murder and a everythign else stil happens - why are you so willing to continue allow this?

Why are you so willing to protect the lives of those who CHOOSE to perform acts that are outside acceptable society and then PAY £38,000 a year to keep them alive? Sometimes indefinitely.

we have people on earth who are starving and living in conditions of poverty that £38,000 a year would make thier lives and those in thier communties a veritable paradise - yet you are so willing to rush to protect those that would harm others.

KILL them, and use the money SAVE LIVES OF THE INNOCENT.

I'm not the one with "topsy turvey" view of the world mate.

clear enough for you?

I do know what it is like Rafa and I know your pain brother. Its a daily battle but hitting out on the forum won't help. I have done a few times and it won't get you anywhere as like you say others don't understand and will only make you more angry and feel worse mate

 

[Chris152]

Given the advance warnings we had, first from China, then from Italy, this is the best we could do.

And apparently we've not yet reached the peak?
Too little, too late in spite of repeated explicit criticisms from experts internationally about how the Uk was handling things. Ahhh, but we were being led by science unlike those foreigners. It was so bleedin obvious this was going to happen.

 

[rafezetter]

opps repeat post.

 

[rafezetter]

I do know what it is like Rafa and I know your pain brother. Its a daily battle but hitting out on the forum won't help. I have done a few times and it won't get you anywhere as like you say others don't understand and will only make you more angry and feel worse mate

Thanks appreciate it - but it's not about "hitting it out" I'm not trying to take it out on rorschach or anyone else despite how it would seem - but sometimes the only way to convey a point is to make the person stand there and see it in all it's technicolour grotesqueness.

Pictures paint a thousands words and all that - and I only wish I could paint an actual picture - or like I said plug someone into my head and FEEL.

no-one who could feel as I do, experience what I have would still think a rapist deserves to live, even in a prison. From there it's not much of a stretch to include those who are wilfully destructive to other human beings.

Yes I get that it's a slope, and from there we are on the way to "all pigs are equal, but some are more equal than others". You see I'm not blinded by my personal rage, and just lashing out like a wounded animal, unthinking, uncaring of what gets hit.

But throughout human history there have been times and occasions when one "crime" (that's what's the "lets all be friends" people consider killing a rapist is) prevents more deaths.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the bombing of Dresden and Berlin and all the others - were necessary to prevent even more death and bring about the end of a war and a regime that had already killed millions.

Compared to those distastful acts - which the likes of Rorshcach and co would be hard pressed to condemn, because of what they prevented - capital punishment against actual criminals convicted of serious crimes is nothing.

Which reminds me - I wonder how he and they feel about the western countries having nukes? Does he condemn that we have nukes - or does he condemn that we NEED TO HAVE THEM, because THEY HAVE THEM. - MAD - or is he secretly happy we have them for the same reasons?

How is killing rapist and murderers and those that would wilfull spread a virus any different? - MAD works in many forms. I understand that, but clearly they do not.

For some I feel there is little hope of making them understand, they are so wrapped up in thier cotton wool lives, keeping their heads down and pretending the world isn't the way it is - and this is exactly how it thrives, suckling on the teat of "human kindness". They are the ones feeding it, instead of eradicating it.

Edit: anyway enough of my bullcrap, I'm alive and healthy - 900? geez, this is not good.

For all of the failings I think the UK has, I am still eternally grateful I do live here and not elsewhere, it and it's social systems has saved my life more than once and I am thankful for that, despite all my griping.

It's not lost on me that some of them were brought in by liberals like rorschach.

 

[user22161]

I'm ex-Army and in general terms have a very jaundiced view of some aspects of civil society and I'm afraid I do believe that some people are utter scum.

I agree with that, some are born into a scum family and will produce their own scum kids. I remember an old Charles Bronson film where I think the main character's wife had been killed by muggers or rapists. He turned vigilante and went out with a gun to areas they frequented as a target for robbery. Shot anyone who tried to attack him and IIRC, police turned a blind eye. Appeals to my sense of justice but sadly, we're no longer allowed hand guns.

60 ish years ago a problem lad at our school was birched in the Isle of Man for some crime he committed on holiday and he was better behaved when he came back.

Maybe the more liberal minded should watch some of the police documentaries on various TV channels, often late evening and see what they have to put up with and all too often the comment at the end is "no further action" as the CPS didn't have time to prosecute. There's virtually no punishment, even for fighting with police.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I hope there is a nation wide rethink of how we live our lives, how we provide care and how we make provisions for another pandemic etc. The one thing that is clear to me though is how much we all value our NHS and it is time it is resourced properly and the people within it are treated properly. No doubt there are huge challenges to come economically, hopefully people will learn the lessons of good hygiene and will start to eat properly and exercise. I have had a good look at myself during this pandemic and made some big changes that are quite frankly well overdue and I am ashamed of myself for not making them 20 years ago.

i share you hope, but suspect the full force of commodity/ commercial culture will swing into play the moment restrictions begin to lift and people will be out buying their much-needed MaccyDs and saving their pennies for a number plate that bears a slight resemblance to their name etc.
Amid our local FB group thread where people were congratulating themselves on clapping for the NHS, i placed a pic and link to the One million claps appeal - raising money £5 at a time by a simple text - for the same carers being applauded (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12672 ... for-carers). Not one person commented on this, almost as if it didn't exist. Clapping and cheering is cheap - we did that and i think it's a good thing to do. but it's not enough, and i doubt people will put their money where their mouths are when things return to normal. Let's face it, we all desperately want things to go back to normal.

I don't share your view on this Chris.

For all we hear about the odious behaviour of some my sense is that the majority have got back in touch with something society was fast losing. Whether it's a sense of community or just an appreciation of what is important I think (and hope) some of it will stick.

Without opening up a debate on NHS funding but using it as an example I also feel we will make better informed decisions - to either accept the risks/downsides or the ongoing costs pf better protection.

It is interesting that in just a few months Boris has gained a government that is directly supporting virtually every sector of society. That in itself will prompt some different thinking in the way we adjust.

FatmanG - I do hope you wife is okay and understand a bit more about why C19 is such a worry for you.

On the topic of summary executions - I have mentioned on here before that my son is a Police Officer. His probably better informed view than most of us is that the majority of problems with coughing and spitting arise with people who have other problems such as mental health or some form of substance dependency.

 

[MikeG.]

I was truly sorry to read your post, rafezetter, in particular to have hints of the torment you have gone through and continue to endure. You are right, I personally don't have a clue how that feels, or how I would deal with it.

......you can scoff and think this is hyperbole.........

There are rather too many "you"s in your post, inferring accusations or assumptions about an individual poster here, which may even be me. I'd be careful of personalising things in that manner, when you have as little idea of our circumstances, attitudes, and background as we do of yours.

 

[Trevanion]

But throughout human history there have been times and occasions when one "crime" (that's what's the "lets all be friends" people consider killing a rapist is) prevents more deaths.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the bombing of Dresden and Berlin and all the others - were necessary to prevent even more death and bring about the end of a war and a regime that had already killed millions.

Compared to those distastful acts - which the likes of Rorshcach and co would be hard pressed to condemn, because of what they prevented - capital punishment against actual criminals convicted of serious crimes is nothing.

I'm not sure you can really compare the two really, and whether the bombings were "necessary" will always be a permanent debate. I believe the Dresden bombing was a serious war crime committed by the allies, nothing of any real strategic gain was made, a cultural hub was absolutely flattened and it's citizens died either burning to death, suffocating in their basements due to the lack of oxygen because of the flames above or raped and killed by the following Russian army if anyone did survive that mess. There really wasn't anything "necessary" about it in my mind especially since the Axis were on the back foot and there was absolutely nothing gained of any real note.

Nagasaki and Hiroshima will always be debated about until the end of time, I'm not really sure what to say about it, on one hand, yes it did technically cause the Japanese to unconditionally surrender (Even though they kept quiet about the bombings and didn't even acknowledge them for several days up until surrender) because main strategic targets were completely decimated and there was absolutely no recovery. On the other hand, hundreds of thousands of non-combatants had to die because of it and the country felt the effects for many years after. Yes, in the end, it probably did end up saving more lives than were lost due to the bombings and if the situation was reversed and it was the Japanese that had the bombs I have no doubt they would've been used to great extent against China, other Asian states and perhaps even the United States at a serious push.

There were atrocities on all sides of the war, after all, all is fair in love and war.

On the topic of capital punishment, I'm not sure I agree with it. There are many people have been proven innocent of serious crimes many years after the fact, yes, the overwhelming majority of convicted criminals will be truly guilty of the crimes they're accused of and perhaps more unknown crimes but there will be the odd innocent one that ends up in a bad place for the wrong reasons, is it right and just to execute these people? I know someone who was falsely accused of rape, very long and drawn out case where this poor guy's life was turned upside down totally where nobody would go near him with a barge pole with a knife at the end of it. He told me in confidence that the only thing that was keeping him from hopping in his car with a rope around his neck tied to a lamp post was the three or so people that believed him. In the end, it developed that she had lied about it and admitted it to her friend so the case was dropped, he was a free man but with a seriously dark cloud above him, she, on the other hand, got away with barely a slap on the wrist for ruining this guy's life. He's doing alright now but there's still a bit of unfounded animosity against him from some people.

I honestly don't have a clue myself of what to think of it, I can see totally what you mean about prisoners costing so much per year (about £30,000 per head in the UK) to keep alive especially in the cases of people such as Anders Brevic or Brenton Tarrant elsewhere, they're not exactly ever going to be released so you should possibly just cut out all the bits in between and just end their existence right? I would be very interested in knowing how many truly horrific and messed-up people that have had the death penalty imposed against them in the past actually had any fear of it, depending on where you are in the world it's done so humanely there's no pain so what is there actually to be afraid of? If I personally had a choice between life in prison or the death penalty I'd pick death penalty every time.

 

[profchris]

I see we have a lot of discussion about deterrent punishments.

Although those of us who don't commit crimes think that punishments must deter criminals, all the evidence from research (and there is quite a lot of it) shows that criminal sanctions don't deter people from committing crimes. This is up to and including the death penalty.

The reasons are complex, but the main one is that the criminals in question don't believe they are caught (and usually don't understand how and why they were caught either). Or they don't even believe that what they are doing is criminal, thus risking punishment. The evidence really is very strong indeed. This is one of my favourite pieces of research, in case anyone wants to check out what I say: "Does Criminal Law Deter"

So advocating birching, or death, or long prison terms, is not increasing deterrence, whatever the person doing so might think.

There are other arguments in favour of tough sentences (punishment, revenge, prevention of future crime) which can be justified. Then we can argue the morality etc of making a change. But deterrence isn't one of them.

 

[Droogs]

Holy womble juice, the US has had >2K CVid deaths in 24 hours

 

[Chris152]

I hope there is a nation wide rethink of how we live our lives, how we provide care and how we make provisions for another pandemic etc. The one thing that is clear to me though is how much we all value our NHS and it is time it is resourced properly and the people within it are treated properly. No doubt there are huge challenges to come economically, hopefully people will learn the lessons of good hygiene and will start to eat properly and exercise. I have had a good look at myself during this pandemic and made some big changes that are quite frankly well overdue and I am ashamed of myself for not making them 20 years ago.

i share you hope, but suspect the full force of commodity/ commercial culture will swing into play the moment restrictions begin to lift and people will be out buying their much-needed MaccyDs and saving their pennies for a number plate that bears a slight resemblance to their name etc.
Amid our local FB group thread where people were congratulating themselves on clapping for the NHS, i placed a pic and link to the One million claps appeal - raising money £5 at a time by a simple text - for the same carers being applauded (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12672 ... for-carers). Not one person commented on this, almost as if it didn't exist. Clapping and cheering is cheap - we did that and i think it's a good thing to do. but it's not enough, and i doubt people will put their money where their mouths are when things return to normal. Let's face it, we all desperately want things to go back to normal.

I don't share your view on this Chris.

For all we hear about the odious behaviour of some my sense is that the majority have got back in touch with something society was fast losing. Whether it's a sense of community or just an appreciation of what is important I think (and hope) some of it will stick.
Without opening up a debate on NHS funding but using it as an example I also feel we will make better informed decisions - to either accept the risks/downsides or the ongoing costs pf better protection.
It is interesting that in just a few months Boris has gained a government that is directly supporting virtually every sector of society. That in itself will prompt some different thinking in the way we adjust.

'And so the onslaught is coming. Get ready, my friends. What is about to be unleashed on American society will be the greatest campaign ever created to get you to feel normal again. It will come from brands, it will come from government, it will even come from each other, and it will come from the left and from the right. We will do anything, spend anything, believe anything, just so we can take away how horribly uncomfortable all of this feels'. If you get time, have a read of this article - It's specific to the US, but I think it's on the right track:
https://medium.com/@juliovincent/prepar ... 8ce3f0a0e0

 

[MikeG.]

Holy womble juice, the US has had >2K CVid deaths in 24 hours

They have 5 times our population so that's the equivalent of us having 400 deaths a day. At the moment, proportionately, they're doing better than us.

 

[profchris]

About half those in New York, where they don't have enough IC beds and respirators.

That hugely increases the death rate.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

'And so the onslaught is coming. Get ready, my friends. What is about to be unleashed on American society will be the greatest campaign ever created to get you to feel normal again. It will come from brands, it will come from government, it will even come from each other, and it will come from the left and from the right. We will do anything, spend anything, believe anything, just so we can take away how horribly uncomfortable all of this feels'. If you get time, have a read of this article - It's specific to the US, but I think it's on the right track:
https://medium.com/@juliovincent/prepar ... 8ce3f0a0e0

An interesting read and I broadly agree. Generally speaking:
- We are preoccupied with the basic tasks of (making a) living, and do much of this 'on autopilot' for much of the time. We are creatures of habit.
- We have short attention spans (partly due to the above).
- We have short - errr.... a yes, memories (homer) (which can be manipulated by mass media).

 

[Droogs]

PRC has a population 30 times ours and didn't reach anywhere near that number

 

[RobinBHM]

PRC has a population 30 times ours and didn't reach anywhere near that number

so they told us.......

 

[steve1001]

Does anyone know where the current UK record for the number of deaths per month (that include both normal and Covid related) may be accessed?
It would be interesting to compare the number of people that have died this year in Jan, Feb, Mar, and compare them to the totals from previous years.
I would like to get an idea of the increase in deaths per month that are occuring (if there is any increase).

Steve

 

[FatmanG]

I hope there is a nation wide rethink of how we live our lives, how we provide care and how we make provisions for another pandemic etc. The one thing that is clear to me though is how much we all value our NHS and it is time it is resourced properly and the people within it are treated properly. No doubt there are huge challenges to come economically, hopefully people will learn the lessons of good hygiene and will start to eat properly and exercise. I have had a good look at myself during this pandemic and made some big changes that are quite frankly well overdue and I am ashamed of myself for not making them 20 years ago.

i share you hope, but suspect the full force of commodity/ commercial culture will swing into play the moment restrictions begin to lift and people will be out buying their much-needed MaccyDs and saving their pennies for a number plate that bears a slight resemblance to their name etc.
Amid our local FB group thread where people were congratulating themselves on clapping for the NHS, i placed a pic and link to the One million claps appeal - raising money £5 at a time by a simple text - for the same carers being applauded (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12672 ... for-carers). Not one person commented on this, almost as if it didn't exist. Clapping and cheering is cheap - we did that and i think it's a good thing to do. but it's not enough, and i doubt people will put their money where their mouths are when things return to normal. Let's face it, we all desperately want things to go back to normal.

I don't share your view on this Chris.

For all we hear about the odious behaviour of some my sense is that the majority have got back in touch with something society was fast losing. Whether it's a sense of community or just an appreciation of what is important I think (and hope) some of it will stick.

Without opening up a debate on NHS funding but using it as an example I also feel we will make better informed decisions - to either accept the risks/downsides or the ongoing costs pf better protection.

It is interesting that in just a few months Boris has gained a government that is directly supporting virtually every sector of society. That in itself will prompt some different thinking in the way we adjust.

FatmanG - I do hope you wife is okay and understand a bit more about why C19 is such a worry for you.

On the topic of summary executions - I have mentioned on here before that my son is a Police Officer. His probably better informed view than most of us is that the majority of problems with coughing and spitting arise with people who have other problems such as mental health or some form of substance dependency.

Great read and i expect it will happen here but we dont have to let it

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The reason why different countries have had different experiences is somewhat speculative - but:

China rapidly came to the conclusion that the virus was able to spread very fast and that there were no obvious easy treatment options. They had the data before it was communicated (somewhat belatedly) to the West, and as a police state (effectively) the ability to lockdown quickly and completely.

The US has the questionable pleasure of being lead by Trump. He was in complete denial of the risk until the end of February. At his recent press conferences it is clear that as soon as he goes off the written script , he is confused and inarticulate. I expect US deaths to increase rapidly due to poor leadership and poor social care infrastructure.

Much of Western Europe has followed the same pattern of rapid increase in cases until it became evident that health services would be utterly overwhelmed. Then lockdown - unprecedented . I can only attribute the lag in UK cases to different social structures - UK winter is wet and cold which inhibits socialising outdoors, Italy and Spain are rather different climatically and socially.

Trying to score political points and criticism with the benefit of hindsight is pointless right now - we need to focus on getting the future right. I don't doubt the sincerity of those involved in solving the problems or the efforts they are putting in. There would be no mileage in changing horses mid-stream - we can only analyse the performance and make better plans for the future when the dust has settled.

As an example - PPE is clearly an issue. I don't know by how much demand for these has increased - I would expect that a 10-20% should have been easily achievable. But if demand is up by a factor of 10 (worldwide!) it is no surprise there are shortages - manufacturing capacity limitations, raw material supplies etc . You can't (I assume) make adequate masks out of curtains if you have run out of the right filter material!

 

[Richard_C]

Reply to Steve

Www.ons.gov.uk is the repository for everything. Sometimes not user friendly. Most reports have links to the raw data, downloadable as excel or csv files. Often the downloaded file has multiple tabs. I use them a lot in my work for pay, inflation and so on.

Some tables are called time series. That's what you want if you are doing year on year comparisons. Once you have it as an excel workbook you can cut it any way you want.

Was planning to look at it myself, not got round to it yet.