Copal Varnish
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Dangermouse
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Some boat varnishes are oil based, wither they are the same as copal I dont know. Rustins do a good one, but its a bit tricky to apply. Rustin's yacht varnish is specially formulated on Tung Oil is available in Gloss and Satin. Has excellent adhesion and will not flake or peel when correctly applied.
i think if it is still available anywhere, it will be horrendously expensive. I looked for some similar specialist propolis based varnish once before, and IIRC it was over 100EUR for a litre, located in germany and carriage was on top.
Gary Morris
Established Member
They sell it here - £7 for 75ml - looks exspensive
http://www.greatart.co.uk/LEFRANCBOURGE ... nishes.htm
Gary
http://www.greatart.co.uk/LEFRANCBOURGE ... nishes.htm
Gary
mrpercysnodgrass
Established Member
Dammar varnish is a bit more affordable. What do you intend using it on?
http://shop.apfitzpatrick.co.uk/79300-k ... 1206-p.asp
http://shop.apfitzpatrick.co.uk/79300-k ... 1206-p.asp
Traditional copal/Pine resin Varnishes are very specialist these days. Apart from use in Art circles the only people using it tend to be Violin and a few other musical instrument makers.
Touchstone tonewoods might stock an Oil varnish. Kremer Pigmente and Hammerl in Germany. Unless you add a drier it is very slow to cure and the resultant film is not as hard or as durable as a modern Alkyd/Phenolic resin varnish.
At one time I made my own by heating Pine Resin and Linseed Oil. I ended up with some very decent stuff but it was pretty dangerous to make and the fumes were awful, even though I did the procedure outdoors. Somewhere I still have a bit of Kremers Copal varnish, very slow drying.
You could try Epifanes as a modern equivalent. Seems to be well regarded.
Just remembered. Northern Renaissance Instruments do a Pine Resin Oil Varnish. I have a couple of tins of the stuff. As far as traditional Oil varnish goes it's very reasonably priced. You would be very hard pressed to get similar stuff cheaper.
Touchstone tonewoods might stock an Oil varnish. Kremer Pigmente and Hammerl in Germany. Unless you add a drier it is very slow to cure and the resultant film is not as hard or as durable as a modern Alkyd/Phenolic resin varnish.
At one time I made my own by heating Pine Resin and Linseed Oil. I ended up with some very decent stuff but it was pretty dangerous to make and the fumes were awful, even though I did the procedure outdoors. Somewhere I still have a bit of Kremers Copal varnish, very slow drying.
You could try Epifanes as a modern equivalent. Seems to be well regarded.
Just remembered. Northern Renaissance Instruments do a Pine Resin Oil Varnish. I have a couple of tins of the stuff. As far as traditional Oil varnish goes it's very reasonably priced. You would be very hard pressed to get similar stuff cheaper.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I used to keep bees, but I've not heard of that use of propolis. What would the varnish be used for? Why propolis?marcros":1kullr2g said:
it is a violin varnish apparently as used by stradavarius. propolis is said to do something with uv light, IIRC.
without re-reading it, part of the article i saw is below:
quote
PROPOLIS SOAP – Used as a Ground for Violin Varnish
by William Fulton
To introduce the subject of the ground I use under violin varnish let me present the following background:
In 1989 I attended the Tiverton Violin Conference in England and heard a presentation by Claire Barlow. It concerned the results of an investigation she had conducted on the ground that was used by the classical makers. She revealed that the ground appeared to contain something she described as “rubble.” Claire was unable to identify what the material was, but she did say, with some certainty, what it was not. Then in 1993 I attended a joint meeting of the Violin Society of America and the Catgut Acoustical Society and heard a presentation by Andrew Dipper where he discussed a mineral ground that he and Geary Baese were investigating in an attempt to reconstruct what Claire Barlow had discovered. That is the background now for my ideas on this mysterious ground.
I believe this ground was based on propolis, a byproduct of the beekeeping industry.
Back in the days of the old master violin makers, 1550–1730, people who kept bees didn't have the hives we have today. They kept their bees in skeps, baskets woven of straw. Each year, in preparation for the honey run, the beekeeper would clean the hive by leaching it in lye, the result of leaching wood ashes with water. (Today we scrape the propolis from the hive.) The lye would digest the propolis making the hive ready for the bees. This digesting process created a liquid soap from the propolis. It is my belief that this liquid soap was the source of the mysterious ground the violin makers used as an undercoat. (It was also probably used by artists of the time to make a smooth, sealed surface for paintings). Someone, be it the violin maker, artist, or perhaps a person who was engaged in dying cloth (it gives a beautiful gold color), would add alum (other metal salts can be used) to the lye-propolis mixture, precipitating an aluminum propolis soap. The resulting very bright yellow material, when washed, would be a very fine slurry ready to use as a ground.
How did the violin makers use this propolis soap? Here are my thoughts. The violin makers would scrape the surfaces of the violin smooth with scrapers. (You don't have to worry about the small imperfections caused by the curl of the maple picking out or small imperfections such as tool marks, etc., because they will be filled.) Then the wet slurry would be rubbed into the wood leaving a coating of this bright yellow soap on the surface. It is allowed to thoroughly dry and then it is rubbed, with the hand, to a very smooth, almost silk-like, surface. The material will fill all tool marks, all imperfections, gaps in the purfling, but the grain of the wood will be completely hidden. Next, a coating of clear varnish is applied and, if the index of refraction of the varnish is correct, the wood grain suddenly appears and the propolis soap will disappear. When dry, if there are any imperfections in the surface they are repaired by rubbing with more propolis soap and sealing with more varnish. This is continued until the surface is acceptable. Then more varnish is applied, a color glaze, and the instrument is finished.
This bright yellow aluminum soap actually seals the surface of the wood. The varnish is absorbed by the material but the varnish does not penetrate into the wood. When it is applied to the scraped surface, the top appears like corduroy, but the material fills the grooves of the corduroy, and the surface becomes smooth. After varnishing the growth lines in the top are accentuated, look darker, due to varnish being absorbed by the propolis soap.
Originally, when the skeps were leached in the lye, some organic matter other than the propolis was digested, such as dead bees, beeswax, etc. This gives a greenish-yellow color to the aluminum precipitate. To get a bright yellow color the liquid soap was allowed to stand until the organic matter formed a scum on top which was subsequently removed (It actually rots to form the scum.). Then a bright yellow color is produced when the alum is added. Of course today we do it differently but the results are the same.
The reason I believe this to be the ground is because it is, first of all, a very bright yellow, the color seen under most old varnishes, and, second, it is a product that was readily available to the violin maker. end quote
source http://www.scavm.com/Fulton.htm
phil,
i should add that i only really looked at this because it seemed a shame to throw the stuff away!
without re-reading it, part of the article i saw is below:
quote
PROPOLIS SOAP – Used as a Ground for Violin Varnish
by William Fulton
To introduce the subject of the ground I use under violin varnish let me present the following background:
In 1989 I attended the Tiverton Violin Conference in England and heard a presentation by Claire Barlow. It concerned the results of an investigation she had conducted on the ground that was used by the classical makers. She revealed that the ground appeared to contain something she described as “rubble.” Claire was unable to identify what the material was, but she did say, with some certainty, what it was not. Then in 1993 I attended a joint meeting of the Violin Society of America and the Catgut Acoustical Society and heard a presentation by Andrew Dipper where he discussed a mineral ground that he and Geary Baese were investigating in an attempt to reconstruct what Claire Barlow had discovered. That is the background now for my ideas on this mysterious ground.
I believe this ground was based on propolis, a byproduct of the beekeeping industry.
Back in the days of the old master violin makers, 1550–1730, people who kept bees didn't have the hives we have today. They kept their bees in skeps, baskets woven of straw. Each year, in preparation for the honey run, the beekeeper would clean the hive by leaching it in lye, the result of leaching wood ashes with water. (Today we scrape the propolis from the hive.) The lye would digest the propolis making the hive ready for the bees. This digesting process created a liquid soap from the propolis. It is my belief that this liquid soap was the source of the mysterious ground the violin makers used as an undercoat. (It was also probably used by artists of the time to make a smooth, sealed surface for paintings). Someone, be it the violin maker, artist, or perhaps a person who was engaged in dying cloth (it gives a beautiful gold color), would add alum (other metal salts can be used) to the lye-propolis mixture, precipitating an aluminum propolis soap. The resulting very bright yellow material, when washed, would be a very fine slurry ready to use as a ground.
How did the violin makers use this propolis soap? Here are my thoughts. The violin makers would scrape the surfaces of the violin smooth with scrapers. (You don't have to worry about the small imperfections caused by the curl of the maple picking out or small imperfections such as tool marks, etc., because they will be filled.) Then the wet slurry would be rubbed into the wood leaving a coating of this bright yellow soap on the surface. It is allowed to thoroughly dry and then it is rubbed, with the hand, to a very smooth, almost silk-like, surface. The material will fill all tool marks, all imperfections, gaps in the purfling, but the grain of the wood will be completely hidden. Next, a coating of clear varnish is applied and, if the index of refraction of the varnish is correct, the wood grain suddenly appears and the propolis soap will disappear. When dry, if there are any imperfections in the surface they are repaired by rubbing with more propolis soap and sealing with more varnish. This is continued until the surface is acceptable. Then more varnish is applied, a color glaze, and the instrument is finished.
This bright yellow aluminum soap actually seals the surface of the wood. The varnish is absorbed by the material but the varnish does not penetrate into the wood. When it is applied to the scraped surface, the top appears like corduroy, but the material fills the grooves of the corduroy, and the surface becomes smooth. After varnishing the growth lines in the top are accentuated, look darker, due to varnish being absorbed by the propolis soap.
Originally, when the skeps were leached in the lye, some organic matter other than the propolis was digested, such as dead bees, beeswax, etc. This gives a greenish-yellow color to the aluminum precipitate. To get a bright yellow color the liquid soap was allowed to stand until the organic matter formed a scum on top which was subsequently removed (It actually rots to form the scum.). Then a bright yellow color is produced when the alum is added. Of course today we do it differently but the results are the same.
The reason I believe this to be the ground is because it is, first of all, a very bright yellow, the color seen under most old varnishes, and, second, it is a product that was readily available to the violin maker. end quote
source http://www.scavm.com/Fulton.htm
phil,
i should add that i only really looked at this because it seemed a shame to throw the stuff away!
RogerP
Established Member
Years ago I inherited the contents of a small workshop amongst which I found a 1/2 gallon (guessing size) of Hadfields White Copal Varnish. The tin is covered in dust and grime and splashes but it doesn't look as if the sealed lid has ever been opened - but I could be wrong. The contents are still liquid as can be felt by shaking/inverting the tin. The label is dated 17th Oct 1951. Hadfield's logo states -"Well made and well matured" - I should think this particular batch is indeed well matured! I wonder if it's still any good?
The propolis is just a theory, of which there are hundreds when it comes to the Varnish/ground of Stradivari. I don't think that there is any real scientific evidence of it's use. I do know that analysis points to Pine Resin in some type of drying Oil - probably Linseed or Walnut.
RogerP. You're Copal varnish is probably still good. I don't think it goes off, although it may eventually turn into solid. It's probably an old fashioned coach type varnish. I think it was still available (fairly readily) in the '70's. Worth keeping.
RogerP. You're Copal varnish is probably still good. I don't think it goes off, although it may eventually turn into solid. It's probably an old fashioned coach type varnish. I think it was still available (fairly readily) in the '70's. Worth keeping.
Well if you want some of the NRI Pine varnish I can send you some. You won't need a lot for a Violin. You will need a pretty dust free room and a decent quality brush. Failing that use the foam brushes and bin them after each coat.
Well if you do open it watch for the dust and grime. Dust and Oil varnish are the worst of enemies, even the dust that you can't see. When I use Oil varnish I have to use a separate room, away from any other activities. Even the clothes that I wear have to be chosen carefully. It might seem extreme but some traditional type Oil varnishes can take 5 or 6 hours to become touch dry. In that time it can pick up an awful lot of dust. Getting dust into an opened tin of Oil varnish just compounds the problem.
marcus":3ui0pham said:
To be honest you might give up on it fairly quickly. It is VERY slow drying compared to any modern type of Oil based varnish that you get at your local B&Q and it can't take the knocks and wear as well as modern type finishes. For furniture I would try the Epifanes. It was made for the Boat/Yacht industry but some high end Guitar makers (costing thousands £££'s) now use it. The good point about any Oil based Varnish is that it displays the grain of wood better than any other finish that I've seen. An Oil based Varnish is a little like Danish Oil but on steroids.
Joe hadfield smith
New member
Hi everyone, my name is Joe hadfield smith my great grandfather was one of the founders of hadfields paints . unfortunately my Side of the family did not keep any historical items from the company and I have been slowly collecting them . If anyone has any old hadfields paint or varnish cans empty or not I would love to purchas them if at all possible. Thank you for your consideration, happy varnishing!
