COP26 progress or same old

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I believe it was you who called Jacobs posts “flawed garbage”

I would call that derision.
You might see it that way but if you actually bothered to take the time to read what I wrote, then you would glean that I was referring to a certain scientific study which has been debunked and yet he hangs onto it as evidence. I never referred to his posts as flawed garbage.

Every post he has made so far with me in mind has been derisory, even inferring that I'm an anti-vaxxer. He's a keyboard warrior of the worst kind.
As it happens I actually survived a SARS infection back in 2003 which left me with severe COPD so I don't take any risks and I don't need internet bigots assuming that because I don't indulge their prejudiced views that I must be an anti-vaxxer or the likes.
 
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Just as in my industry there is no point in making the most environmentally sound vehicles we could as at this point in time, we would sell to about 1 in 100,000.

That is one of the biggest logical fallacies I have read in this "debate". If you and all the other car manufacturers made the most eco cars you could and stopped making any dino burners at all people would buy them. After all if you wanted to buy oranges but they were now extinct (no longer available or grown for the market) and could only get mandarins or satsumas then that is what you would buy or go without. You are basically saying, it's too hard and we can't be bothered so will do as little as we can get away with and still maximise profits. Complete tosh
 
That is one of the biggest logical fallacies I have read in this "debate". If you and all the other car manufacturers made the most eco cars you could and stopped making any dino burners at all people would buy them. After all if you wanted to buy oranges but they were now extinct (no longer available or grown for the market) and could only get mandarins or satsumas then that is what you would buy or go without. You are basically saying, it's too hard and we can't be bothered so will do as little as we can get away with and still maximise profits. Complete tosh
People forget about the massive popularity of the small economical offerings over the years, from Ford model T onwards. The Mini was one of the best in recent years. Even the Reliant Robin was popular. The Trabant was a brilliant concept but badly executed. The industry has too many Jeremy Clarksons!
 
Market forces are excellent in promoting innovation and technical development. This is certainly true in the car industry.

These benefits only arise given the freedom to innovate. Legislation constraining freedoms will inevitably retard development.

There is a spectrum of positions between the extremes of "let market forces dominate" through to "legislate all to ensure coherence with the fixed strategy". Neither extreme has been proven to work well, fairly or consistently - a balance or compromise is required.

Personally I favour limited legislation only to avoid gross excesses of market forces. Others may embrace legislation which seeks to avoid any excess.

For cars, the current approach in the UK of increasing incentives backed by legislation restricting the sale of new ICE by 2030 seems a sensible balance.

Politicians are elected every ~5 years. Transition to a low/zero carbon is multi-decadal. No political party of either persuasion will go much faster than public opinion finds acceptable as it simply eliminates their re-election chances.

Pragmatism rules - the UK public (generally) are aware of climate change, accept that it is an issue, but are thus far almost entirely unfamiliar with its impact.

Flooding and drought events several thousand miles away may elicit sympathy but no sense the UK is imperilled. Most have never seen a coral reef! UK flooding and storms are of trivial consequence - a few hundred (out of 20m+) flooded, the odd roof blown off.
 
You might see it that way but if you actually bothered to take the time to read what I wrote, then you would glean that I was referring to a certain scientific study which has been debunked and yet he hangs onto it as evidence. I never referred to his posts as flawed garbage.

Every post he has made so far with me in mind has been derisory, even inferring that I'm an anti-vaxxer. He's a keyboard warrior of the worst kind.
As it happens I actually survived a SARS infection back in 2003 which left me with severe COPD so I don't take any risks and I don't need internet bigots assuming that because I don't indulge their prejudiced views that I must be an anti-vaxxer or the likes.
Another link for ey-tony here Why the hockey stick graph will always be climate science's icon
Not difficult to find these things out. No need to be 20 years behind the curve.
Or is New Scientist also part of a huge world-wide confidence trick?
 
New Scientist said:
Since 2001, there have been repeated claims that the reconstruction is at best seriously flawed and at worst a fraud, no more than an artefact of the statistical methods used to create it (see The great hockey stick debate).


Details of the claims and counterclaims involve lengthy and arcane statistical arguments, so let’s skip straight to the 2006 report of the US National Academy of Science (pdf). The academy was asked by Congress to assess the validity of temperature reconstructions, including the hockey stick.

“Array of evidence”

The report states: “The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998, 1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during at least the last 1000 years. This conclusion has subsequently been supported by an array of evidence that includes both additional large-scale surface temperature reconstructions and pronounced changes in a variety of local proxy indicators, such as melting on ice caps and the retreat of glaciers around the world”.


Most researchers would agree that while the original hockey stick can – and has – been improved in a number of ways, it was not far off the mark. Most later temperature reconstructions fall within the error bars of the original hockey stick. Some show far more variability leading up to the 20th century than the hockey stick, but none suggest that it has been warmer at any time in the past 1000 years than in the last part of the 20th century.


It is true that there are big uncertainties about the accuracy of all past temperature reconstructions, and that these uncertainties have sometimes been ignored or glossed over by those who have presented the hockey stick as evidence for global warming.

The problems

Climate scientists, however, are only too aware of the problems (see Climate myths: It was warmer during the Medieval period), and the uncertainties were both highlighted by Mann’s original paper and by others at the time it was published.


Update: as suggested by the academy in its 2006 report, Michael Mann and his colleagues have reconstructed northern hemisphere temperatures for the past 2000 years using a broader set of proxies than was available for the original study and updated measurements from the recent past.


The new reconstruction has been generated using two statistical methods, both different to that used in the original study. Like other temperature reconstructions done since 2001 (see graph), it shows greater variability than the original hockey stick. Yet again, though, the key conclusion is the same: it’s hotter now than it has been for at least 1000 years.


In fact, independent evidence, from ice cores and sea sediments for instance, suggest the last time the planet approached this degree of warmth was during the interglacial period preceding the last ice age over 100,000 years ago. It might even be hotter now than it has been for at least a million years.


Further back in the past, though, it certainly has been hotter – and the world has been a very different place. The crucial point is that our modern civilisation has been built on the basis of the prevailing climate and sea levels. As these change, it will cause major problems.
 
My MP has consistently voted against legislation to address climate change. Up until now. There's a whole lot of bandwagon jumping going on right now.
Boris, if you recall, said wind turbines couldn't blow the skin off a rice pudding(showing a spectacular ignorance of how a wind turbine works). Now he's trying to position himself as the jolly green clown/saviour of the universe.
Let's hope it's a genuine change of heart, and not just more political manuevering, like his last minute Brexit support decision, which got him the PM position.
You assume a hart - I admire an optimist
 
Just doing a little own research and it seems we have records of 7000 ppm. In fact it looks like we're almost at historic lows at the moment. Or am I missing something?
To get those levels, I think you have to go back 500 million years. What has been highlighted is that for thousands of years the CO2 level stabilised around 300ppm. At the same time the temperature of the earth stabilised, climate stabilised so humans could predict weather patterns, sow seeds, grow food, and eventually develop technology. It allowed humans to go forth and prosper.
 
To get those levels, I think you have to go back 500 million years. What has been highlighted is that for thousands of years the CO2 level stabilised around 300ppm. At the same time the temperature of the earth stabilised, climate stabilised so humans could predict weather patterns, sow seeds, grow food, and eventually develop technology. It allowed humans to go forth and prosper.
Looking at a graph, admittedly one that goes back a long time, you would be forgiven for thinking that there is absolutely no correlation between temperature and the amount of co2 in the atmosphere. Not exactly in living memory but definitely whilst human kind has been trotting about on the planet, we've had much colder temperatures and considerably higher concentrations of co2 - again, am I missing something?
 
Looking at a graph, admittedly one that goes back a long time, you would be forgiven for thinking that there is absolutely no correlation between temperature and the amount of co2 in the atmosphere. Not exactly in living memory but definitely whilst human kind has been trotting about on the planet, we've had much colder temperatures and considerably higher concentrations of co2 - again, am I missing something?
Good question. Explanations here; Does CO2 always correlate with temperature (and if not, why not?)
It's not simple and the answer seems to be the sea; "More than 90% of global warming goes into heating the oceans, while less than 3% goes into heating the atmosphere".
 
Not exactly in living memory but definitely whilst human kind has been trotting about on the planet, we've had much colder temperatures and considerably higher concentrations of co2 - again, am I missing something?
I don't think you are missing anything. CO2 levels and temperatures did fluctuate in the past, but eventually stabilised. for about 10 thousand years. In the last 100+ years, the CO2 level has increased more than anything seen in the previous 800,000 years.
 
It may be difficult to isolate climate change from natural climate variation…..

however, we do know:

human population has gone from £25b in 1950 to 7.5BT now
we know carbon levels are massive
we know the huge numbers of animals have become extinct
we know natural habitat is disappearing
we know rainforests are disappearing
we know the world is going to struggle to feed itself
 
CO2, climate and sea levels have changed substantially in geological timescales. Flora and fauna no doubt evolved over extended periods. That which was unable became extinct and is mostly lost to the historical record. This is all completely irrelevant to current debates.

What happens 1k or 1m or 1bn years from now is equally unimportant. Life on earth will evolve and adapt. Some species will be lost, others emerge. Neither I nor any descendants that I may feel any responsibility for will be alive.

I feel no sense of anger in the actions of recent generations. Reality is now - we have some reasonable knowledge of likely outcomes if we continue on current paths. It is that for which I feel some responsibility or concern.

I would prefer my children and grandchildren are able to live fulfilling lives relatively unconcerned about adverse changes to the climate for which I was part of the generation responsible. The only important timeframe is therefore the next 100-150 years.

I will be as irrelevant to my great, great grandchildren as my predecessors born in mid Victorian times - of possible academic interest only.
 
I don't think you are missing anything. CO2 levels and temperatures did fluctuate in the past, but eventually stabilised. for about 10 thousand years. In the last 100+ years, the CO2 level has increased more than anything seen in the previous 800,000 years.
Er, OK, but at no other time other than since that in living memory (OK, maybe my great granny) has there been any visible relationship between co2 and temperature and if you accept some of the graphs of much longer time periods that I found on the Internet (and so far I don't see anyone challenging these data) then, even as only a trainee scientist, you'd be hard pressed to completely justify a temp/co2 structure based on cause and effect. Indeed, now that I've got interested and delved a bit further, I'm struggling to see where the evidence is for signicant global warming caused by anthropogenic action based around co2 emissions. It looks from what I've read (this hockey stick graph) that the first IPCC report was heavily based on fraud? Further, the 97% of cats that prefer it is well dodgy in the best tradition of statistics being presented as facts to support the preferred view of - I haven't quite got to the bottom of who yet - any ideas anyone? Do like a good conspiracy ;)

Ps according to NASA data, the world is greening up because of increased co2. I didn't realise but co2 is pumped into commercial greenhouses to increase growth - didn't realise it was quite such influential plant food! Also, I just read somewhere that there are certain types of plants that die when co2 concentration drops to around 200 ppm (which it was very close to before the industrial revolution). This is actually quite an interesting subject isn't it when you start digging :)
Cheers
 
...... I'm struggling to see where the evidence is for signicant global warming caused by anthropogenic action based around co2 emissions.
Keep struggling and you will get there eventually. Try this - I posted it a bit back Does CO2 always correlate with temperature (and if not, why not?)
It looks from what I've read (this hockey stick graph) that the first IPCC report was heavily based on fraud?
We've just been going over (and over and over) that with ey_tony if you read back a bit. It's not true. Read more about it Hockey stick graph - Wikipedia
Further, the 97% of cats that prefer it is well dodgy in the best tradition of statistics being presented as facts to support the preferred view of - I haven't quite got to the bottom of who yet - any ideas anyone?
Not dodgy at all but not easy to understand a complex picture. It's the truth they are after, and what to do about it.
Do like a good conspiracy ;)

Ps according to NASA data, the world is greening up because of increased co2. I didn't realise but co2 is pumped into commercial greenhouses to increase growth - didn't realise it was quite such influential plant food! Also, I just read somewhere that there are certain types of plants that die when co2 concentration drops to around 200 ppm (which it was very close to before the industrial revolution).
Yes you are right on these. In fact "greening" looks likely to be a big part of the solution. "Plant food" - it's much more basic than that, look up "Carbon cycle" carbon cycle - Google Search
This is actually quite an interesting subject isn't it when you start digging :)
Cheers
Certainly is!
But don't be distracted by the deniers and sceptics. The chances of you, or any of them, finding a huge "mistake" in the story so far, or even more unlikely; finding a massive fraud involving millions of scientists, is extremely remote. Prove it and you'd save the world from a lot of bother and probably get a Nobel Prize!

As for the deniers' and sceptics' "conspiracy" it's more a case of mass superstition, in fact very traditional. If you read about peasant societies (Russian novels especially) you find them full of suspicion, doubt, belief in witches, warlocks, evil spirits, evil plots, signs and portents, etc etc because they can't understand the world. Things are often not easy to understand and can be scary, but it doesn't mean that there are evil spirits at work, that three magpies portends a disaster, that anything you don't understand is an attempted fraud... and so on.
 
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@Istrickl Though CO2 is the poster boy of the CC debate, it is only in conjunction with the other far more "active" gases released alongside and as a result of human industrialization and fossil fuel use that we can say the problem is man made. Yes these swings and changes happen all the time, the problem is that the much bigger swings in the past have been gradual and for most have taken a couple of millenia to occur. The current problem is that we have caused this swing to happen so quickly that the flora and fauna are unable to adapt and this is a big problem for us as we live off them. People in general are also unaware that the use of fossil based fertilizers in farming while actually increasing yields over the last few decades have been the major cause of soil degredation and depletion. There are a large number of qualified people within the farming industries who are postulating that unless drastic changes are made, farming as is has at most 20 years left in the UK before desertification ends it.

Our problem is we have been too successful as a species in our rising ability to change the world as we want without knowing what it will do long term and in our ability to prolong life and provide safe secure living space, which has made use multiply at an unprecedented rate. After all it took several million years for the population of the UK to reach 20 million and then 5 decades to reach 60 million. Something had to give and the planet is showing us that it is starting to.

Addendum
Desertification in this instance has nothing to do with water and refers to the loss of microbial biodiversity needed to create more topsoil. Fertilisers basically kill off these microbes and along with weathering we lose a layer of nutrient rich topsoil every time we fertilize with modern chemicals. It takes around 7 years for these microbes to create an inch of good soil and we are losing about half an inch a year currently.
 
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Keep struggling and you will get there eventually. Try this - I posted it a bit back Does CO2 always correlate with temperature (and if not, why not?) We've just been going over (and over and over) that with ey_tony if you read back a bit. It's not true. Read more about it Hockey stick graph - WikipediaNot dodgy at all but not easy to understand a complex picture. It's the truth they are after, and what to do about it.Yes you are right on these. In fact "greening" looks likely to be a big part of the solution. "Plant food" - it's much more basic than that, look up "Carbon cycle" carbon cycle - Google Search Certainly is!
But don't be distracted by the deniers and sceptics. The chances of you, or any of them, finding a huge "mistake" in the story so far, or even more unlikely; finding a massive fraud involving millions of scientists, is extremely remote. Prove it and you'd save the world from a lot of bother and probably get a Nobel Prize!

As for the deniers' and sceptics' "conspiracy" it's more a case of mass superstition, in fact very traditional. If you read about peasant societies (Russian novels especially) you find them full of suspicion, doubt, belief in witches, warlocks, evil spirits, evil plots, signs and portents, etc etc because they can't understand the world. Things are often not easy to understand and can be scary, but it doesn't mean that there are evil spirits at work, that three magpies portends a disaster, that anything you don't understand is an attempted fraud... and so on.

By all means seek to discredit the UEA emails and hacking and label them as fakes, perhaps you might want to explain in your own words why Mann et al effectively chose to and went to great lengths to effectively delete or treat as a none events both the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age from his Hockey Stick hypothesis?
 
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