Compass Saw

[Cheshirechappie]

About twelve months ago, I invested a very small sum (less than £10 including postage) in a vintage compass saw, courtesy of everybody's favourite internet auction site.

Simon Barley in 'British Saws and Saw Makers' states that compass saws had heavily taper-ground blades. Mine must be the exception that proves the rule - it's of even thickness across and along the blade, which is quite thick at 0.050", 11 1/2" long, and tapers from 1 1/4" at the heel to 5/8" in width at the toe. It's of 8 tpi, filed almost rip with about 10 degrees of rake and a little fleam, and (surprisingly, perhaps) not much set. The handle is of open double-horned type like a dovetail saw, dark-stained but of beech where the stain has worn off, and very comfortable. There are two sawbolts with split nuts, one inserted from each side, and clearly undisturbed from new.

I can find no maker's mark of any sort, only the initials 'DTE' stamped on the back of the handle - clearly an owner's mark. I've no idea as to age, but it obviously predates the last use of split nuts.

Question - has anybody ever used a compass saw? Despite a year's ownership, I haven't found a use for it yet. Indeed, apart from shaping the drop-leaves of elliptical-top gate-leg tables and the like, I can't think of many uses. I suspect it might be quite a slow, wide-kerfed saw given it's thickness and the almost 'hybrid' filing of the teeth, and clearly no match for a decent bandsaw or a power jigsaw, but as there was compressed wood in some of the gullets, mine has done some work at some time. In it's favour, it would be far cheaper and easier to store away than either electron-powered rival, so it might be an option for the tightwad handtooler (that's me!) should such a job ever crop up.

Any thoughts?

 

[worn thumbs]

I have used one a long while ago and prior to the introduction of cordless jigsaws,they were about the only way to cut curves beyond the reach of an electricity supply without creating a pile of snapped coping saw blades.I don't think I would set too much store by the sharpening geometry or the amount of set as it may have been adapted by a previous owner.I doubt you would have a stampede to deal with if you ever decided to sell so you might as well tune it up and hang on to it.

 

[swb58]

I've got one, much as you describe, that I remember using to cut small sticks for the fire when I was quite young. That was more than 50 years ago, I don't think it's seen much action since!
I have toyed with the idea of filing into a pull saw for which I could see a use for it but might be disappointed if it's not better than my Silky F180.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Thanks for the replies, chaps! I didn't expect any at all.

I agree about the sharpening geometry and set - though the 'hybrid' filing did seem a pragmatic response to the problem of dealing with rip, cross and in-between cutting. The limited set suggests this one was used for fairly gentle curves.

The purchase was made on a bit of a whim, really. I was searching Ebay for Vintage Saws, and they kept cropping up - indeed, I was surprised at how many there were. Very few of them seemed to sell for decent money, though! I won't be selling this one - it's the only one I've got, it's in fair condition, and it might come in handy one day!

 

[Billy Flitch]

Another name for the Compass saw was a key hole saw and that is where mine got most of its use.There where two types one as you describe with the saw tote handle and the other had a turned handle that you could slide the blade through the handle. The key holes where made by drilling a small hole with a wheel brace and putting two saw kerfs under the hole and then chopped out with a chisel.

You would have to cut a ruck of key holes out before you would have to think about sharpening the blade, least way I never sharpened mine.
I`ve seen them being used on plaster board when something needed cutting around.
The blade on the ones with the saw tote is split so it passes around the saw screws I recently saw a replacement set of blades with three different blades so someone must still be using them ,just enjoy it you never know it may come in handy sometime.

 

[DTR]

I have used a keyhole saw when installing a cat-flap at my brother's house (and again when he moved). The first time I actually tried using a jigsaw first, but moved over to the keyhole saw and found it much easier.

Maybe I should refer to it as the cat-flap saw from now on?

 

[AJB Temple]

If it is what I think it is, I use mine for cutting holes in ceiling plaster to fit spotlights!

 

[bugbear]

Judging from this old Disston advert, we actually have 3 categories of saw;

http://myplace.frontier.com/~dastrom/ol ... /nests.htm

The narrowest is the "keyhole", the biggest is the "compass", and both these were available as fixed-blade saws,
and as handles with interchangeable blades, called "nests of saws".

IIRC Salaman says something similar.

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

The "nest of saws" is still available - here's evidence that I bought one new in 2011!

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/hand-saw-opportunity-t52893.html

 

[Cheshirechappie]

There does seem to be ongoing confusion about the names of some saws. Simon Barley notes the similarity in appearance of Table Saws and Pruning (or Grafting) saws.

I suppose in the end, it doesn't really matter what you call it as long as it does what you want it to!

 

[bugbear]

There does seem to be ongoing confusion about the names of some saws. Simon Barley notes the similarity in appearance of Table Saws and Pruning (or Grafting) saws.

I suppose in the end, it doesn't really matter what you call it as long as it does what you want it to!

Ooh - I'd forgotten about the infamous "table saws". Thanks for reminding me.

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

To answer the original question, I do have this one

which is the compass saw blade from an older 'nest of saws' with a removable handle

I've just tried using it, and it's hopeless. The blade is not taper ground - it's about 1mm thick everywhere. The teeth are some sort of compromise shape and I can see that I have tried touching them up to achieve some sharpness through the rust, but frankly it's not a tool that I ever bring out of the back of the drawer where it lives!

 

[Trafalgar]

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-FatMax-17 ... B000VSSFTO

 

[AndyT]

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-FatMax-17-205-12-Inch-Compass/dp/B000VSSFTO

Wow, it's allegedly "FOR FINE FINISH PLYWOOD & HARDWOODSDESIGNED FOR PRECISE CUTTING INCLUDING DOVETAILS MITERS & TENONS" - so why does anyone bother with anything else? :lol:

 

[mouppe]

I use the blade from an old compass saw in a reamer. The teeth were filed off and the edge sharpened like a scraper. Here is a link to an article on how to make one.

http://www.greenwoodworking.com/SawStee ... eamerPlans

 

[Billy Flitch]

O aye the table saw remind me again what was it used for.

 

[bugbear]

O aye the table saw remind me again what was it used for.

Resisting several obvious jokes, the table saw was shaped like the compass saw, but slightly larger in all respects.

It was used for the same purpose as the compass saw, but on curves of larger radius.

For an early reference, Holtzapffel writes of them pp 711-712 in his Turning and Mechanical Manipulation Vol 2.

Of course, a later tool shares the name.

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

I've just had the idea of looking in the 1928 and 1938 Marples catalogue for what was on offer as a compass saw.

At the start of each catalogue, there is a note about registered trade marks. The well known Marples, Moseley and Hibernia marks were all for First Quality tools, but there is also mention of W Kent and J Dixon for Second Quality, and E Henry and J Robertson for Third Quality. (Robertson disappears in the 1938 catalogue.)

There are very few tools listed as being second or third quality - almost everything is Marples or Hibernia.

One exception is cheap boxed of "Boys' Tools" which came in an "oak finish" cardboard box.

Another is the compass saws. In the 1938 list, a 12" Marples compass saw was 2s 8d but a third quality Henry brand was only 1s 6d. Similarly with the nests of saws - first quality Marples was 3s 3d but a 'cheaper quality' option was only 2s 6d.

What got left out to make a cheaper saw? Presumably, the skilled work of taper grinding along such a thin sliver of steel. So, my suggestion is that CC and I have both bought lower grade tools - but we can comfort ourselves that they are interesting as collectables!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

There are several slightly puzzling questions with regard to table saws (hand-powered version), compass saws and keyhole saws.

The first question is why bother with table saws at all? With a blade of close to 3" width at the heel, the radius of curve it would negotiate would be quite large - it's not far off trying to cut a curve with a panel saw. Maybe that's why they're not very common on the used market.

The next question is why were blades tapered in length? A curve easily negotiated by the toe end of any of the above saws would jam the heel end. A blade parallel in width would make more sense.

Third question - how much difference would taper grinding really make to the radius of curve the saw could produce? Especially at the heel end of compass and table saws, very little indeed.

Maybe that's why such saws didn't really seem to get much of a mention in the practical texts, most of which reference frame, bow or turning saws (narrow blades parallel in width) for curvilinear work. However, compass saws do crop up on the secondhand market, and - as Andy points out above - in the catalogues, so somebody clearly bought them. Keyhole saws are maybe the exception - they are narrow enough in the blade to turn in a cut, and do have their uses. They do have a bit of a reputation for being easy to kink, though.

 

[bugbear]

Keyhole saws are maybe the exception - they are narrow enough in the blade to turn in a cut, and do have their uses. They do have a bit of a reputation for being easy to kink, though.

So (clearly) filing them to cut on the pull stroke makes a great deal of sense (I always do this when putting a hacksaw blade in a pad saw handle).

So why (historically, in the UK) are they filed for the push stroke?

Grimshaw (1880) in his famous work on saws illustrates a keyhole saw filed for push and pull strokes. The former is described as "common, and incorrect" and the latter as "correct".

No-one listened!

BugBear