Having found producing mouldings for cabinet work using moulding planes very hard to get to grips with I am trying to find out whether a combination plane, like the Stanley 45/55 would offer a viable alternative. Obviously I could route these, and have done, but as part of my return to the stone age would like to avoid this if possible. Any advice please.
Combination Planes
- Thread starter Saint Simon
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xy mosian
Established Member
Hi, I have a Record 050C, combination plane, and found it very tricky to use. I suspect the main problem was/is the relatively low quality of the timber I was trying to use. That and the grain always seeming to be running in the wrong direction. The supplied cutters are all either plough or beading. This seriously limits what mouldings can be achieved.
I have only rarely needed mouldings, to match existing, and have normally resorted to a scratch stock, with perhaps multiple passes with different blades. Scratch stocks are nothing more, in the very basic form, than a shaped scraping blade mounted in some form of handle which provides fences of sorts. The blades can be made quite readily from dis-used hard point saw blades.
If you are looking for a method of producing the same mouldings regularly then I am sure someone could make you a moulding plane to suit. But be aware some of the problems I mentioned earlier will present themselves when using a moulding plane. One beauty of a scratch stock is that it can be used in either direction.
xy
I have only rarely needed mouldings, to match existing, and have normally resorted to a scratch stock, with perhaps multiple passes with different blades. Scratch stocks are nothing more, in the very basic form, than a shaped scraping blade mounted in some form of handle which provides fences of sorts. The blades can be made quite readily from dis-used hard point saw blades.
If you are looking for a method of producing the same mouldings regularly then I am sure someone could make you a moulding plane to suit. But be aware some of the problems I mentioned earlier will present themselves when using a moulding plane. One beauty of a scratch stock is that it can be used in either direction.
xy
xy mosian
Established Member
Ok! I've just re-read your post 
You already know all about moulding planes
On thing I did forget to mention. The Record 050C has no sole (man), as the cutters are of different widths what there is of a sole is actually the edge of a thin(1.5mm) wall at either side. This is awkward to handle if running with one edge of the beading cutter in fresh air.
xy
You already know all about moulding planes
On thing I did forget to mention. The Record 050C has no sole (man), as the cutters are of different widths what there is of a sole is actually the edge of a thin(1.5mm) wall at either side. This is awkward to handle if running with one edge of the beading cutter in fresh air.
xy
Pekka Huhta
Established Member
I'd say that making complicated mouldings nicely and accurately with a #55 is more difficult than finding a small set of moulding planes from eBay
I use a #45 routinely when making mouldings. A #55 is only a showoff: I have used it quite a lot but it promises more than it delivers. It is difficult to set up, there is quite a lot of tearout and when finishing the profile you'll have to re-install many of the irons you have used during the process, just to touch up the tearout or malformed profiles. So five different planes is quicker to use than one plane with 55 irons
On the other hand the #55 irons that can be used on a #45 are handy and much quicker to set up. I use them all the time, for example most of my beads are done with a #45 although I have a complete set of beading planes.
I would start with a #45, a small set of hollows and rounds (don't have to be complete sets and they do not necessarily have to be pairs) and maybe a few simple profiles and you have a very good "library" for different mouldings.
Here are a few that I have made:
The complete stories how I made those (and a few others) can be found at
http://www.sihistin.fi/en/woodwork/moldings.html
http://www.sihistin.fi/en/woodwork/moldings2.html
Pekka
I use a #45 routinely when making mouldings. A #55 is only a showoff: I have used it quite a lot but it promises more than it delivers. It is difficult to set up, there is quite a lot of tearout and when finishing the profile you'll have to re-install many of the irons you have used during the process, just to touch up the tearout or malformed profiles. So five different planes is quicker to use than one plane with 55 irons
On the other hand the #55 irons that can be used on a #45 are handy and much quicker to set up. I use them all the time, for example most of my beads are done with a #45 although I have a complete set of beading planes.
I would start with a #45, a small set of hollows and rounds (don't have to be complete sets and they do not necessarily have to be pairs) and maybe a few simple profiles and you have a very good "library" for different mouldings.
Here are a few that I have made:
The complete stories how I made those (and a few others) can be found at
http://www.sihistin.fi/en/woodwork/moldings.html
http://www.sihistin.fi/en/woodwork/moldings2.html
Pekka
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Hi Simon,
You will find widely differing views about combination/multi/universal planes. I think they are great but most people seem to struggle with them. Of the two you mention, the Stanley #45/Record #405 can do rebates, grooves, beads and flutes
This is a Stanley #45
The Stanley #55 is quite different in that it can use asymetric cutters and to do this it needs one of the skates to be able to move up and down. As a result it is more of a fiddle to set up. Here's mine
Here are the cutters
And here's a picture showing the skates at different levels to accommodate an asymetric cutter
There's lots of good information on Alf's website here
http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/combihow.html
Whether you will get on with one, I don't know. You need to be able to sharpen the cutters well and to learn how to use the planes. I love 'em but others hate 'em.
Hope this helps
Cheers :wink:
Paul
You will find widely differing views about combination/multi/universal planes. I think they are great but most people seem to struggle with them. Of the two you mention, the Stanley #45/Record #405 can do rebates, grooves, beads and flutes
This is a Stanley #45
The Stanley #55 is quite different in that it can use asymetric cutters and to do this it needs one of the skates to be able to move up and down. As a result it is more of a fiddle to set up. Here's mine
Here are the cutters
And here's a picture showing the skates at different levels to accommodate an asymetric cutter
There's lots of good information on Alf's website here
http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/combihow.html
Whether you will get on with one, I don't know. You need to be able to sharpen the cutters well and to learn how to use the planes. I love 'em but others hate 'em.
Hope this helps
Cheers :wink:
Paul
matt
Established Member
Someone I know was trying to sell a 55 sometime ago. I'm happy to ask if it's still available if you're interested.
laird
Established Member
I used the Record equivalent of the 55 to make moulding to match and replace damaged sections of moulding in a flat rebuild. As paul says it can be a bit of a fiddle to set up but the results are spot on, and the set up gets easy with practice.
bugbear
Established Member
laird":1piogm3c said:
I bet you didn't
BugBear
mahking51
Established Member
BB,
If he did, I want one!!!
Martin
If he did, I want one!!!
Martin
bugbear
Established Member
mahking51":hhgz1416 said:BB,
If he did, I want one!!!
Martin
Yeah - very rare and probably collectible.
BugBear
Thanks to everyone for their advice. It looks as though the Stanley 55 is the answer to my moulding wants. I hadn't realised that only the 55 had the asymmetric capability which seems essential for any variety of profiles. If anyone knows of one out there or stumbles across one please let me know.
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Saint Simon":2vd0of0t said:
The best advice is to keep looking. There are lots out there but many are incomplete (cutters, etc., missing) and good ones can be very expensive. I was lucky and found mine at a very good price at Pennyfarthing Tools http://www.pennyfarthingtools.co.uk/ but it took a lot of looking.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
laird
Established Member
bugbear":zumknqg6 said:laird":zumknqg6 said:
I bet you didn't
BugBear
I won't take your bet, sorry, senior moment. "I used a Record 405........." is more in touch with reality.
I have now had a couple of months to get to know my Stanley55 and I am really pleased with it. Finding it not too difficult to churn out small quantities of moulding for my attempts at cabinet work.
However, I would now like to try making some cutters of my own design and size and would welcome advice on choice of steel, tips on profile shaping and any subsequent heat treatment that might be necessary.
Thanks
Simon
However, I would now like to try making some cutters of my own design and size and would welcome advice on choice of steel, tips on profile shaping and any subsequent heat treatment that might be necessary.
Thanks
Simon
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Hi Simon,
The person who's done probably more than anyone else to modify Stanley #55s (and other combination-type planes), make his own blades and generally use them to their full potential is an Australian chap called Jake Darvall. He's a bit unconventional and thinks nothing of taking an angle grinder to his tools when necessary :shock: However, I love his stuff and have learnt a great deal about planing from him.
He posts on the Australian forum. Here are three of his old posts to give you an idea
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/some ... and-38105/
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f13/modif ... ane-33429/
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f13/modif ... ons-33590/
If you click on his profile and look at all his posts (might take you a few months :wink: ) he's posted plenty of other stuff specifically about combination and universal planes.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
The person who's done probably more than anyone else to modify Stanley #55s (and other combination-type planes), make his own blades and generally use them to their full potential is an Australian chap called Jake Darvall. He's a bit unconventional and thinks nothing of taking an angle grinder to his tools when necessary :shock: However, I love his stuff and have learnt a great deal about planing from him.
He posts on the Australian forum. Here are three of his old posts to give you an idea
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/some ... and-38105/
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f13/modif ... ane-33429/
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f13/modif ... ons-33590/
If you click on his profile and look at all his posts (might take you a few months :wink: ) he's posted plenty of other stuff specifically about combination and universal planes.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
Vann
Established Member
You could buy some Clifton multi-plane cutters and reshape them to your required profile. That way you'd start with the best (i.e. hand forged) O1 steel, with the notch already in the top, and of the right thickness.Saint Simon":1kqnlzr5 said:
Workshop Heaven sell them individually. No doubt others will too.
Cheers, Vann
Pekka Huhta
Established Member
I'd say the cheapest and easiest way is to get 1/8" carbon steel plate (next to free if you know where to buy, no idea where that would be in UK thougn) or use old circular saw blades as raw material. The frames of carbide tipped saw blades are tool steel, you can just shape them with an angle grinder. Most of the frames I've used are of steel that tempers to air (instead of having to use oil or water to temper them), so you can already make a few feet of moldings with the iron without tempering. You don't even have to worry aqbout overheating the iron when grinding: the more you heat it the harder it gets.
Of course you would have to temper the iron properly for any actual use, but a makeshift cutter would be perfect for short lengths where you can't use a scraper.
I have found out that trying to shape cutters from already hardened steel is a waste of time, as you will ruin the temper in any case. If you are not willing to making a small charcoal forge for a tenner, a MAPP gas torch doesn't cost as much as the wasted hours trying not to ruin the temper and failing miserably :wink:
A very easy source for one or two cutters is from an old file: many of the smaller single cut files are made from 1/8" stock and all you need is to grind down the teeth a bit (you need to remove them completely only on a small area around the front of the cutter profile) and shape the cutter.
The hack saw blades used for cutting tiles can be used for shaping the hardened cutters as well. They wear down relatively fast: you can slow down this by using motor oil as cutting fluid. This might be the easiest way for starting out shaping cutters.
Pekka
Of course you would have to temper the iron properly for any actual use, but a makeshift cutter would be perfect for short lengths where you can't use a scraper.
I have found out that trying to shape cutters from already hardened steel is a waste of time, as you will ruin the temper in any case. If you are not willing to making a small charcoal forge for a tenner, a MAPP gas torch doesn't cost as much as the wasted hours trying not to ruin the temper and failing miserably :wink:
A very easy source for one or two cutters is from an old file: many of the smaller single cut files are made from 1/8" stock and all you need is to grind down the teeth a bit (you need to remove them completely only on a small area around the front of the cutter profile) and shape the cutter.
The hack saw blades used for cutting tiles can be used for shaping the hardened cutters as well. They wear down relatively fast: you can slow down this by using motor oil as cutting fluid. This might be the easiest way for starting out shaping cutters.
Pekka
