Combination machines

[jamesmoc]

Hello All,

I'm new to the forum but have lurked for quite a while. I have been undertaking regular joinery and some furniture making and want to be able to size and shape material at home with a bit more ease. I have been looking into setting up a small workshop and was wondering would anyone have any advice or comments regarding combination p&t/saw/spindle moulder/morticer machines. They seem to be quite versatile and I am looking for advice from some more experienced hands.

Cheers
J

 

[PAC1]

It is a subject that comes up regularly and creates a good deal of debate. The first issue is how much space do you have. If you have sufficient space then seperate machines may be preferable.
Second how much will you use the machine(s). If the answer is that the machine will get alot of use then maybe seperate machines so that you are not forever swapping set ups that are necessary on combination machines
Third what will you be making. This will influence your needs
Fourth what is the budget.

I went the combination route because woodwork is not my main source of income but I wanted a very accurate machine and at the time the budget was not an issue.
With top of the market combination machines you can buy the ability to have repeatable accurate set ups.

I am sure lots of people will come along with views so it would help if you told us how much space you have and what you want to make.

Hope you enjoy whatever choice you make

 

[johnf]

Hi James
Welcome to the forum where in the UK are you as you may find someone willing to give a demo on a combi not to far away.

I myself am a big fan of the combination machine I use a Hammer C331 which I find to be very accurate and easy to use I think it uses less space than three separate machines

 

[jamesmoc]

I'm actually in the south of Ireland. Space is not really an issue however I do not really want to fill the space that I have with separate machines and that pushes me towards a combination machine. I have been making do with a ts-55, circular saw, jig saw, and router and hand tools to do what I need so far and this is obviously really limiting. Plus, it is a pain to have to get my lumber yard to size stock for me.

I saw the hammer machine online, lovely (and quite expensive) machine. I have seen a few second hand machines over here for around the €2.5k mark. Are there any makes that I should stay away from.

I want to do make some items such as an island unit for the kitchen, dressers, chests of drawers initially and expand from there as skill progresses; all as a hobby. I have always been a DIY'er and just want to do a bit more as I enjoy that kind of work.

Other than the hassle of changing the set up, what would people see as the main cons of the combination machine?

 

[wizer]

That would be the only con. You really need to see and use the machine before you buy it. Change each mode yourself and think about whether it would be annoying to do those operations often. I know that I go back and forth between the Planer, Thicknesser and TS often when I'm busy and I think it would be a complete pain in the rear to have to keep swapping everything over. Especially if you're using the spindle and morticer, all on the same job. That said, I've never used one, so they may be a doddle. As I say, you really need to test it thoroughly before taking the plunge.

 

[devonwoody]

Never seen much mention of the Shopsmith on this forum, I have seen a demonstrator working these combination machines and they do look quality, but I did wonder if there were working dimensions that were an issue.

 

[eoinsgaff]

James,

I'm on your side of the water as well and I have a Record Maxi I'm trying to move on. Its not a top end model but it is compact and does what an amateur wood worker would want - table saw, planer, thicknesser and spindle moulder. Its accessorised with a wheel kit, tenoning set up and has a sliding table.

If you're even remotely interested its worth a look sometime.

It also would be interesting to hear what other members here think of this machine - I'm pretty sure Alf has one.

Eoin

 

[johnf]

Hi James
On my Hammer you can use the Spindle planer and morticer with just a change of the switch

The saw would be okay for cutting stock to length but not for sheets.

The thickneser would need the spindle fence sliding over so you can raise the planer tables.

The acuracy is second to none 1/10th of a mm repeatable .
What cons are we talking about.

 

[Mike.C]

James,

I'm on your side of the water as well and I have a Record Maxi I'm trying to move on. Its not a top end model but it is compact and does what an amateur wood worker would want - table saw, planer, thicknesser and spindle moulder. Its accessorised with a wheel kit, tenoning set up and has a sliding table.

If you're even remotely interested its worth a look sometime.

It also would be interesting to hear what other members here think of this machine - I'm pretty sure Alf has one.

Eoin

I maybe wrong as the old gray matter is not what it used to be, but I seem to remember that Alf has/had a Maxi C26 which she hated so much she refused to buy any made by Record again, and rated it about as much use as a "Monstrous Carbuncle"

Cheers

Mike

 

[Alf]

Ah, the Maxi - that Albatross follows me everywhere. I do indeed rejoice in ownership of a Record Power-badged Maxi26 (to be fair, Record Power never actually made it - they just stuck a whacking great "Record Power, Sheffield, England" sticker on it and let you wrongly assume it wasn't the piece of badly designed French tat it, in fact, is). I don't like it, in case you were still in doubt. :lol: I use the P/T bit of it, but the spindle moulder not at all and the tablesaw is so fiddly in use that, despite occasionally relenting and giving it a second chance, by and large it's just an expensive workbench to dump other stuff on. You can make it work, and I know there are owners who actually like it (have a search for woodshavings posts, for example), but I don't think even they would argue it's a good example of the combination animal. But then mine is getting on a bit now, so it may have been improved for all I know.

Combis as a whole, well I think the idea they take up less space is slightly dodgy - they take up the middle of the floor and need space all round. If you don't have either lots of space or a level floor then I reckon forget it. I don't have either, so that doesn't help... As for the changeover, well one of the Maxi's positives is the P/T is of the variety that you don't need to move the tables (What the dickens is the proper term? Mind's gone blank) - and I think that's a big bonus, but I don't know if there are any like that on the market any more? Whatever, the more expensive machines with better and repeatable set ups are really the only way to go I reckon. Hand me a Felder and I could possibly learn to love a combi. Anyone? No? Oh well, worth a try.

Cheers, Alf

 

[wizer]

After I posted last night I went and had a look at the Hammer combi mentioned above. There is a video on their website. They showed the change over from TS - P\T which seemed quite straight forward, using the TS Fence also for the P\T. But it failed to show any other change overs, which tells me they are complicated. The spindle moulder looks like a fiddly setup. But all in all it looks like a solid well made machine. I dunno how much they are but I suspect more than separates which is the biggest turn off for me.

 

[johnf]

A table saw really needs to live in the centre of the workshop to be able to process sheet materials add a planer thicknesser on one side thats your combi

coupled with an excellent sliding table and a spindle moulder which is something you probably would not buy if you used separates ,

Having said that the cutters are massively cheaper than router cutters (do you have a router cutter that will cut a 20x20mm rebate in one pass, spindle moulder no problem)

I am happy with mine

 

[wizer]

I wonder if MarkW's turnable jig\fixture would work for a combi. I notice the Hammer has a wheel kit but it looks like you need room to move it around and I don't imagine it's light.

 

[Shultzy]

Combinations are space-savers as they are usually the same size as a table saw but contain two or three other machines. I have a Record C26 (of Italian manufacture, I think) and after a few initial problems, performs very well. The switching to each mode is by a rotary switch so is quick.

The thicknessing mode has to have the out-feed table lifted up but this is not an inconvenience.

I found the biggest bugbear was the fence which is triangular and needs to be rotated to be used on the planer when switched from the saw (may not be on other combo's). This is a problem when ripping wood and needing to have a planed side on each piece before cutting. I remedied this by making a box that fits over the fence to give the fence parallel sides.

If you have a small space then the combo is fine, but if I had the space I would go for separates every time.

 

[johnf]

I wonder if MarkW's turnable jig\fixture would work for a combi. I notice the Hammer has a wheel kit but it looks like you need room to move it around and I don't imagine it's light.

Wizer the hammer wheel kit work a treat 650 kg of machine move it single handed

 

[jamesmoc]

Thanks all for the additional info. Gives me a lot to think about! I'll let you all know what way I go and why.

 

[juatrhiw]

Two other issues you might want to consider are (1) Table size and (2) machine quality.

On my combination, the planer acts as an extension table to the saw table, making it easy to cut full sized sheet materials or bloody great chunks of hardwood, without needing to organise separate support. Great.

Whichever you choose, combo or separate machines, the most important thing of all is machine quality. Unfortunately, just paying lots of money is no guarantee of getting a machine with plenty of capacity, absolute repeatability, lack of vibration, etc. etc. I'm on my third generation of machines, having gone up a grade each time. I only wish I had made the right decision the first time. Good luck