Climate change policy

[DrPhill]

Might be interesting to consider whether hierarchies in Ancient Egypt, Greece, Roman Empire, the actions of Atilla, Genghis, and more recently the slave traders and empire builders were motivated by personal ambition and greed, or the needs of society as a whole.

And where do you imagine you would have been in such societies? [Hint, statistically nowhere near the top]. Would your experience of life have been justified by the marvelous works bequeathed to the world?

 

[John Brown]

Have they?

Yes.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

And where do you imagine you would have been in such societies? [Hint, statistically nowhere near the top].

I would would not be at the top - lacking the leadership skills, health, physical strength, intellect etc

Were my station in life were broadly as in the current day I would expect to be respected and valued for for the useful skills I have, not consigned to the bottom of the food chain.

I tend towards pragmatism, not the surreal and irrational!

Would your experience of life have been justified by the marvelous works bequeathed to the world?

Not sure what you mean by this?

 

[Jacob]

I would would not be at the top - lacking the leadership skills, health, physical strength, intellect etc

Were my station in life were broadly as in the current day I would expect to be respected and valued for for the useful skills I have, not consigned to the bottom of the food chain.

Luck of the draw. Depends on a host of factors - patronage or parental wealth being a major one, irrespective of any ability.
Given a level playing field then talent can more readily rise to "higher" positions. Hence the enthusiasm amongst the upper clarses for hanging on to unequal opportunities, such as private schooling.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Appalling nonsense.
Homosapiens* could not have survived without cooperation and action in groups, all working for the common good.

It's fundamental to human nature and how most people live most of the time.
What you describe is aberrant behaviour, which unfortunately may sometimes lead to the enrichment of the few but always at great cost to the many.

We will have to agree to differ. Simple observation. Some prosper with no regard for the impact upon others. Most understand the need to engage and motivate others as part of securing their position in society. A few genuinely subordinate their self interest for their community.

The ones who do enrich themselves at everybody elses expense tend to convince themselves that they are getting what they deserve through personal ability, but it is a delusion and they find themselves living in an unstable society and may even come to a sticky end.

Generally agree although they most die naturally with the best that modern palliative care can offer, not a sticky end. A triumph of reality over justice (possibly)

It's nothing to do with altruism or elevated moral standards, it's normal intelligent animal pack behaviour; "one for all, all for one".
*spell checker doesn't allow homosapiens spelt normally with a space.

Intelligent animal pack behaviour - in the wild some animals sensibly cooperate to catch prey, for mutual defence etc. **** sapiens do likewise.

But in many animal groups reproductive rights are reserved for the one with the biggest claws or horns. Those coming second do not do so willingly - they fight and risk severe injury or death to get the top job. Most humans behave in precisely the same way.

 

[Jacob]

......

But in many animal groups reproductive rights are reserved for the one with the biggest claws or horns.

Higher mammals less so.

Those coming second do not do so willingly - they fight and risk severe injury or death to get the top job. Most humans behave in precisely the same way.

No they don't. Or did you have to fight and risk severe injury or death to get where you are? Would that account for your very pessimistic view of civilisation?

 

[selectortone]

Higher mammals less so.

Quite the opposite. Most primates live in groups with brutally enforced pecking orders. Alpha male lions will kill offspring of other males. Wolf packs have strictly enforced hierarchies. Hyenas, African Painted Dogs, Deer, Seals, even those cuddly meerkats... there are many examples.

 

[Chris152]

It's a funny one, isn't it - what ties us to, and what separates us from, our being as animals. Just recently - maybe because of a bit of insomnia - I've started to wonder at how, after a day of hectic existence in a ridiculously, technologically advanced society, we all put our heads down and go into sleep mode, like most of the other mammals, when it gets dark. Back to nature, vulnerable, given over to a rather bizarre unconscious. It's a reminder of what we are, at root.

Not sure that contributes a lot on topic but hey ho.

 

[DrPhill]

Would your experience of life have been justified by the marvelous works bequeathed to the world?

Not sure what you mean by this?

Some of the 'civilisations' that you mention are remembered for their great achievements (eg the pyramids). However wonderful these thing are, real people had their life choices severely restricted, probably suffering slavery, malnutrition and disease. If you had been alive then in one of those state, the chances are that you would have been amongst the 'downtrodden'. If you had been, would you have been thinking 'my suffering is worth it because we are building a pyramid for future generations' or would you have resented the system you were in?

These things happen but that does not make them a good thing. Perhaps we ought resist such inequality where we can, and try to ensure that every member of society can live a fulfilling life, for example, everyone should have a secure roof over their head even if it means that the most wealthy have to own only two houses instead of five.

[[Edit: I apologise for contributing to thread drift, but I do see the climate problem as an extension of the mentality of continuous expansion of the economy, which itself really only benefits the already wealthy).]]

 

[Jacob]

Quite the opposite. Most primates live in groups with brutally enforced pecking orders. Alpha male lions will kill offspring of other males. Wolf packs have strictly enforced hierarchies. Hyenas, African Painted Dogs, Deer, Seals, even those cuddly meerkats... there are many examples.

Non of these are primates. Wolf packs seem to be amongst the most "civilised" and effective as a pack rather than individually.
Bizarre that we are now arguing about whether or not we should behave like sub primate animals or as civilised human beings. The corrupting effect of right wing ideology?

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Some of the 'civilisations' that you mention are remembered for their great achievements (eg the pyramids). However wonderful these thing are, real people had their life choices severely restricted, probably suffering slavery, malnutrition and disease. If you had been alive then in one of those state, the chances are that you would have been amongst the 'downtrodden'. If you had been, would you have been thinking 'my suffering is worth it because we are building a pyramid for future generations' or would you have resented the system you were in?

I would have resented the outcome - but the alternative may been rather worse.

Whether my lot in the ancient world would have reflected my current position - which I would summarise as moderately comfortable, state educated middle class - is pure speculation. As such I may have been reasonably fed, housed, and provided I paid due deference, moderately OK.

These things happen but that does not make them a good thing. Perhaps we ought resist such inequality where we can, and try to ensure that every member of society can live a fulfilling life, for example, everyone should have a secure roof over their head even if it means that the most wealthy have to own only two houses instead of five.

I agree.

[[Edit: I apologise for contributing to thread drift, but I do see the climate problem as an extension of the mentality of continuous expansion of the economy, which itself really only benefits the already wealthy).]]

It may be all that separates us is that I think I see things as I believe they are, you may see them as they should be. Yours may be a more worthy or aspirational view of the world, mine (sadly) I think, reflects how it largely is.

 

[selectortone]

Non of these are primates

I know that. Primates were my first example, being the most evolved of the higher mammals you referred to. Then I went on to give examples of other mammals. Read my post again.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Were my station in life were broadly as in the current day I would expect to be respected and valued for for the useful skills I have, not consigned to the bottom of the food chain.

I’m not aware of many societies in history where that situation would exist. The majority appear to have a very badly treated lower echelon of society.

 

[selectortone]

Wolf packs seem to be amongst the most "civilised" and effective as a pack rather than individually.

They still maintain a fiercely enforced hierarchy. Only the alpha female is allowed to give birth. The weakest individuals are often ostracised and cast out. Survival of the fittest and hardly the altruism you are alluding to.

 

[Jacob]

They still maintain a fiercely enforced hierarchy. Only the alpha female is allowed to give birth. The weakest individuals are often ostracised and cast out. Survival of the fittest and hardly the altruism you are alluding to.

So that's how it is in your house then? Takes all sorts!

 

[selectortone]

So that's how it is in your house then? Takes all sorts!

Well, my wife died 19 years ago, the kids are long flown the nest and now it's just me and the cat. But there is a brutal life-or-death struggle over the timing of the catfood delivery most days.

 

[DrPhill]

The weakest individuals are often ostracised and cast out. Survival of the fittest and hardly the altruism you are alluding to.

But not always:

"All individuals benefit from being a member of the wolf pack; the weak are supported by the efforts of stronger wolves,[10][11] and higher-ranking individuals enjoy better and larger kills than could be taken on their own."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pack_(canine)#Pack_behaviour_in_gray_wolves

 

[selectortone]

But not always:

"All individuals benefit from being a member of the wolf pack; the weak are supported by the efforts of stronger wolves,[10][11] and higher-ranking individuals enjoy better and larger kills than could be taken on their own."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pack_(canine)#Pack_behaviour_in_gray_wolves

True, in good years. When the going gets tough the weakest are the first to suffer. Much like life for us really. Altruism is a luxury tempered by adversity.

 

[DrPhill]

It may be all that separates us is that I think I see things as I believe they are, you may see them as they should be. Yours may be a more worthy or aspirational view of the world, mine (sadly) I think, reflects how it largely is.

You may be right. I can see things as they are, but do not want to treat them as an acceptable solution. I do see the usefulness in society of a small degree of inequality - but would prefer this to be on the basis of a higher reputation, respect or regard accorded to individuals by individuals for the bigger contributors rather than a vast disparity in wealth or power.

 

[Jacob]

True, in good years. When the going gets tough the weakest are the first to suffer. Much like life for us really. Altruism is a luxury tempered by adversity.

er..... really? You mean when times are difficult we can't afford altruism? You been reading the Torygraph?
It seems to me that altruism comes to the fore most often when most needed.