Choosing a thicknesser

[p111dom]

Sound like he's just a salesman. Would you expect a car salesman to be able to know how the engines work? You've learnt another lesson then. Don't believe eveything you here. Check it for yourself.

 

[ithium]

...This is the machine that I own ... The downside to this kind of machine is that you have to change between planing and thicknessing modes.

Hmmm. That's really expensive! Too much for me I'm afraid... However, other than having a fence, and a big stand, what's the difference between that and the Ryobi? Both seem to have the same product titles - "planer thicknesser" - and although it's obviously got some better specs because it's intended for trade use, I can't see anything that jumps out at me as being lacking on the Ryobi. Bah!

Thanks for the info about extractors, too - I didn't realise there were two types. I'll have to look into that as well!

 

[p111dom]

I thought it best just to check and it's definately just a thicknesser. Ring the guy back and tell him he's an *****. I typed the code into google and I found it at Tooltray.com listed as only a thicknesser.

 

[RogerS]

I really don't think that planing/thicknessing sawn timber is the way to go for the reasons already stated. Still...it's your time and money. :wink:

 

[p111dom]

Basically I did have a planer thicknesser but didn't get on with it so I only use it as a thicknesser now and have a seperate planer.

The PT

Now just a T

And just the P

 

[p111dom]

I really don't think that planing/thicknessing sawn timber is the way to go for the reasons already stated. Still...it's your time and money. :wink:

Can't think why Rodger. My supplier sells both and they are the same boards. While in storage the planed board have tended to warp slightly so I still need to machine them in the same way to get them back to square and smooth so I may as well save the money and do it all from the off.

The only exception would be with purely American sourced timber which does tend to arrive planed already and has generally nicer and more uniform grain. However there are a lot of people who prefer the look of the home grown stuff be it because of the look or just it's origin. To buy pre planed and then plane it. Where's the benefit? I suppost you can see your finished grain pattern before you buy I like the mystery of rough sawn. It's all good fun.

 

[ithium]

I thought it best just to check and it's definately just a thicknesser. Ring the guy back and tell him he's an *****. I typed the code into google and I found it at Tooltray.com listed as only a thicknesser.

Okay, I rang Tooltray and the chap there didn't know, so he asked Ryobi and rang me back. He confirmed what you guys have said - thicknesser only.

Not that I don't trust your advice - if so, I wouldn't be asking questions here - but I always like to check and get things absolutely certain. After all, lots of people give lots of different advice, and when you're in my position of not knowing very much at all, it can be difficult to figure things out!

So, that has established that I would need a planer in addition to that thicknesser, or else buy a combination unit. It would appear that the price of doing that is going to be a lot more than I was anticipating - to be able to do what I intend, it appears I'll at least have to double the price of the thicknesser alone, and suddenly the whole thing seems very expensive. Too expensive, in fact! If I am going to spend £400-500 or so on those machines, I would need to be pretty sure of using over £1,000 worth of sawn timber over the next year or two - and I can't really be sure of that. Plus I need to leave money to spend on the rest of the tools, like router etc. So I'm thinking it will probably be better to start out with PAR timber and if I end up using a lot, invest in a thicknesser and planer further down the line.

However it really does depend on quantity of timber and so I'm going to have to look at that very carefully.

I'm very pleased I'm finding all this out now, though, rather than buy stuff and get caught out!!!

 

[RogerS]

I really don't think that planing/thicknessing sawn timber is the way to go for the reasons already stated. Still...it's your time and money. :wink:

Can't think why Rodger. My supplier sells both and they are the same boards. While in storage the planed board have tended to warp slightly so I still need to machine them in the same way to get them back to square and smooth so I may as well save the money and do it all from the off.

The only exception would be with purely American sourced timber which does tend to arrive planed already and has generally nicer and more uniform grain. However there are a lot of people who prefer the look of the home grown stuff be it because of the look or just it's origin. To buy pre planed and then plane it. Where's the benefit? I suppost you can see your finished grain pattern before you buy I like the mystery of rough sawn. It's all good fun.

I'm talking softwood. In my experience, the grain on sawn stuff had much wider growth rings and after all the faffing around with the planer and thicknesser I never got anywhere near a decent finish. Maybe I just get duff lots, I don't know, but for me at least I don't bother with sawn anymore.

 

[ithium]

Okay. I haven't quite given up yet.

If I get just a thicknesser, it seems that I also definitely need a planer. It appears that the first task is to put the wood through the planer, and then to put it through the thicknesser. There seems no point therefore in only getting a thicknesser.

However, what about only getting a planer? Is that an option? Can I use a planer as a thicknesser?

From my research so far, it appears that a planer cuts from below, and a thicknesser cuts from the side. I'm therefore finding it a bit confusing about how to deal with the maximum sizes.

For instance, if a thicknesser says it handles wood up to 150x300, I take that to mean 300mm wide and 150mm high. But if the thicknesser cuts from the side, that means I can only thickness a piece that size in one direction - is that right?

If a planer says it cuts up to 150mm wide, I assume I can take a piece of wood 150x300mm and plane the shorter edge. This will give me one true flat edge then. But although the thicknesser takes 150x300, cutting from the side would mean that I could not actually deal with the 300mm side of the wood at all.

Perhaps I've got the thicknesser a bit wrong - maybe it cuts from above, not the side. But that still leaves me with the same problem.

The only way I can see it working is if the thicknesser cuts from above and also from the side - is that what happens? :?:

If that's the way it works then to finish a piece of wood 150x300mm, I think I would put it through the planer to plane one 150mm side, then through the thicknesser to thickness the other side and the top... I gues I would then turn it over to do the other side. But I'm not convinced that that's the way it works.

I guess what I'm trying to work out is:

1. What is the process followed, by using a planer and a thicknesser, to finish a piece of wood?
2. If I want to finish a piece of wood 150x300mm, do I need a 150mm planer or a 300mm planer to join a 150x300mm thicknesser?
3. Can I thickness with only a planer?

I've watched the video "The Jointer's Jumpin'" three times so far (as linked to by p111dom) but although I understand what is happening there, I haven't established the answers to the questions above.

 

[ike]

Ithium,

1. What is the process followed, by using a planer and a thicknesser, to finish a piece of wood?

It's most important to first obtain 2 adjacent sides perfectly straight and square. You have to do this on the planer table. This is why planers have longer tables than thicknessers - the longer the tables, the easier it is to plane a straight face. Plane one side of the timber (concave side down if it's bowed). Then plane the adjacent side square using the vertical fence. Then you can thickness to the final dimensions.

2. If I want to finish a piece of wood 150x300mm, do I need a 150mm planer or a 300mm planer to join a 150x300mm thicknesser?

You need 300mm wide planer capacity and 300mm wide x 150mm thicknesser capacity either as seperate machines or as a PT.

3. Can I thickness with only a planer?

Sort off. If you plane a face and edge first. Then rip to slightly over the finished dimensions on the table saw to get the other faces parallel. You can then lightly plane to the finished dimensions. But inaccuracy can still creep in whereas with a thicknesser - it will always be exactly parallel faces. In fact this is how you would get the edges of a wide board parallel (you wouldn't try to run a board vertically through a thicknesser - it will quickly plane out of squareness).

As you can see there are many different views regarding the usefulness and quality or otherwise of a 'PT'. If as I read it, it is your intention to plane up to 400 linear metres of timber (of whatever dimensions) a year, a PT definitely makes economic sense. At a hobby level, a 'mid-range' machine such as a SIP, or Axminster, or similar clone at around the £500 mark will get you a thoroughly useful and sturdy machine. I would recommend though to get a machine that has re-sharpenable HSS blades.

The next step up pricewise are probably Scheppach. I don't think they offer such good value for money as a SIP et al, although they can produce an extremely good finish and they do have relatively powerful, high quality motors.

One can analyse potential purchases to the n'th degree, but I don't think it's strictly necessary for this type of machine. The short of it is - in this price bracket, they all do a credible job. More importantly, buy from a supplier who will give you good customer service if anything does go wrong.


Ike

 

[ithium]

Hi Ike, thanks for those answers!

1. What is the process followed, by using a planer and a thicknesser, to finish a piece of wood?

It's most important to first obtain 2 adjacent sides perfectly straight and square. You have to do this on the planer table. This is why planers have longer tables than thicknessers - the longer the tables, the easier it is to plane a straight face. Plane one side of the timber (concave side down if it's bowed). Then plane the adjacent side square using the vertical fence. Then you can thickness to the final dimensions.

I think that makes sense. If I have this right, I use the planer to plane the bottom surface and left-hand surface, and I then use the thicknesser to plane the opposite surfaces.

2. If I want to finish a piece of wood 150x300mm, do I need a 150mm planer or a 300mm planer to join a 150x300mm thicknesser?

You need 300mm wide planer capacity and 300mm wide x 150mm thicknesser capacity either as seperate machines or as a PT.

I understand this now, seeing how the process works... because I need to plane two faces that are at 90 degrees to each other, the planer has to be able to cope with the widest face.

However, can I assume that this also means the thicknesser planes on two faces - top and right - at once?

3. Can I thickness with only a planer?

Sort of. If you plane a face and edge first. Then rip to slightly over the finished dimensions on the table saw to get the other faces parallel. You can then lightly plane to the finished dimensions. But inaccuracy can still creep in whereas with a thicknesser - it will always be exactly parallel faces. In fact this is how you would get the edges of a wide board parallel (you wouldn't try to run a board vertically through a thicknesser - it will quickly plane out of squareness).

Okay... I understand the table saw approach. But is the result really all that bad compared to using a thicknesser? ...I guess it must be... I'm just thinking that it must be surely rather easy to get a certain thickness using the table saw, but I guess the quality of the finish is maybe not as good as from the thicknesser, is that why?

Wide boards... got it... but I lost you regarding running a board vertically through a thicknesser. If a thicknesser accepts up to, say, 150x300mm, how is it possible to put a wide board through vertically?


At this stage I think I need to invest in the widest planer I can afford, and get a thicknesser to match whatever width the planer can handle. There doesn't seem much point getting a thicknesser that can handle 300mm width if my planer can only handle 150mm width. It seems some people prefer separate units rather than combination units, but for me I think I will simply compare the cost and go with whatever works in that regard. If the only way I can plane 300mm is to get a combi unit, that's what I'll probably have to do. (Although, having said that, the main reason I want the capacity to handle 300mm is in case when I come to use hardwoods I need to finish foot-wide planks. With softwoods I doubt I'll go above 200-225mm.)

 

[Shultzy]

ithium, don't get hung-up on a 12" width planer. A 12" board is more susceptible to environmental conditions than two 6" boards glued together, four 3" boards are even better. I've grown up with having to buy par timber. Cut a 8' length of 2x1 into 4 pieces, put them together and the chances that they will be perfectly flat and a consistent thickness will be very slim. I think this is because the wood is machined on all four faces at once. I now have a 10x6 p/t and the difference is stunning. Another point to remember is the weight of timber. I have just planed a 8" x 3" x 5' composite piece of iroko and it was at the limit of of my strength even with rollers.

 

[ithium]

Hi Shultzy, that is very helpful. I must admit I had not really considered the weight of the pieces of timber. Although hardwood weighs more than softwood, it's hardwood that I was mainly thinking of in terms of the larger width. With softwood I can certainly get away with an 8" width, so I guess I should not intend to use bigger pieces of hardwood than softwood.

You also have identified one of the reasons why I am keen to do my own finishing - I don't like the idea of paying roughly 50% extra for PAR and then still having to finish the wood.

I'm already intending to combine small pieces rather than use big pieces in most places, so thinking about it I guess there's no disadvantage in simply doubling up the number of pieces or whatever. Hmmmm. Maybe even a 6" setup will be okay then...

 

[Shultzy]

I think the difference in price between a 6" and a 10" p/t is probably small. Don't try and justify the cost over one or two years when the chances are that the machine will out live you. Remember the length of the planing table is also a factor, longer is good. There are added costs, wheel kit for manoeuvrability, extractor, sharpening kit (or cost of replaceable) and rollers.

 

[ike]

Hi Ithium,

I think that makes sense. If I have this right, I use the planer to plane the bottom surface and left-hand surface, and I then use the thicknesser to plane the opposite surfaces.

Yes.

I understand this now, seeing how the process works... because I need to plane two faces that are at 90 degrees to each other, the planer has to be able to cope with the widest face.

However, can I assume that this also means the thicknesser planes on two faces - top and right - at once?

No, I have assumed that a 300mm wide thicknesser won't have a 300mm thicknessing capacity. Typically, the maximum thicknessing capacity on a 260mm wide machine is around 180mm and on a 300mm wide machine, it is around 230mm or so.

So in your example of 150mm x 300mm, you could thickness the 150mm but not the 300mm. You are talking big, heavy, industrial kit to get 300mm thickness capacity

My Scheppach is 260mm wide x 140mm and I have found it a nuisance when I am making centre rails for doors where I want to thickness around 180mm. In those cases it's over to the table saw and clean up over the planer table, or simply with the jack plane.

Okay... I understand the table saw approach. But is the result really all that bad compared to using a thicknesser? ...I guess it must be...

No, it's a tried and tested method that gives good results.

I'm just thinking that it must be surely rather easy to get a certain thickness using the table saw, but I guess the quality of the finish is maybe not as good as from the thicknesser, is that why?

You can get just as good results, but being a two step process, it just requires a little extra care :wink:

At this stage I think I need to invest in the widest planer I can afford, and get a thicknesser to match whatever width the planer can handle.

Good approach - the widest you can afford. In my experience a 250/260 width x 180 thicknessing capacity is a good compromise. As Schultzy points out, if you want anything wider or thicker, well there are ways to get round it. Yes, a 300/310/320mm width machine is nice if you can afford one. I think a 12"+ capacity is majorly useful for shelving / carcasing jobs, regardless if its one-piece timber or glued up strips.

I honestly think a planer/thicknesser is a cost-effective and space-saving solution. With PTs though do go and have a looksee/play before you buy, as some machines are much easier to switch bewteen surface planing and thichnessing modes than others. Believe me, it's worth a bit extra for a machine with a fast changeover! Of course to avoid that hassle altogether, it's either a Sedgewick (but don't look a the price!), or go for seperates

Ike

 

[OPJ]

ithium, a thicknesser only has one cutter block with a set of knives (two, sometimes three on anything under £1,000 - the more knives, the better the finish). You're correct when you say that its job is to plane the opposite face and edge to the ones you've prepared on a planer but it will only plane each one individually. Best practice is to stand the board on-edge first. If you begin thicknessing with the board wide face-down, it will become thinner and therefore less stable when stood on edge - on a thicknesser, always do the narrow edge first.

 

[Shultzy]

ithium, I think it might be worth you going to one of the trade shows that are coming up and having a look at the machinery "in the flesh". There are usually demo's and you can ask lots of questions.

 

[wizer]

ithium, did you watch the episode of The Wood Whisperer that Dom linked to earlier?? If not, watch it! It will help you visualise what your being told. One note: Americans call the Thicknesser a Planer and they call a Planer a Jointer. That sounds confusing, but if you watch the episode, it will become clearer.

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-6-t ... rs-jumpin/

 

[big soft moose]

Ithium - dont forget that you often get more for your money buying second hand. G & M tools are worth a look ( i know i plug them a lot but i have no relation to them other than satisfied customer) http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/cat_branch.php?sub=34

their staff do know what they are talking about and in my experience are very helpful and patient in explaining what you need to do what.

 

[OPJ]

ithium, it might be a good idea to contact Record Power and ask them to send you one of their Buyer's Guide DVDs. They're totally free of charge and Alan Holtham talks you through what to look for each category (planer thicknessers, bandsaws, table saws, etc.) and, of course, what's available in the Record Power range.

You may also obtain a better understanding of how these machines work from watching this though, I wouldn't personally follow Alan's surface planing technique - the bridge guard should be over the timber. :? :wink: