Chipping Lie-Nielsen Chisels- CONGERs case

[CONGER]

Mr Bean, and the others with chipping LN chisels... have you contacted Thomas Lie Nielsen? and what did he tell?

I addressed the (my) chipped bevels to LNT last Friday morning. I have not heard yet... perhaps he is away (normally he is very prompt). I will report back as soon as he writes.

Good wood.... -gerard-

 

[Bean]

Conger I had a reply from LN today, suggesting that the chisels need regrinding until you reach good steel. I have questioned this and asked if they have a production process that is causing problems.

LN have also offered to ship another chisel to me if the problems persist.

Judging by the number of people who have had a problem with these chisels I cannot helpbut think that they have a problem.

 

[mr]

It happens, another manufacturer recently had a similar problem I think, not that they would admit to it in public. Point of my posting though is to ask a posibly stupid question. Are LN are suggesting you grind the chisel back till you hit "good metal"? If so how would you know that you had hit good metal other than by trial and error as you progress up the metal to the handle?
Cheers Mike

 

[Frank D.]

Just FYI
This phenomenon has happened to me with other manufacturers. My Pfeil bench chisels (I have 2 of them, bought separately at 2 different locations at different times), for example, didn't start performing to my liking until about 4 sharpenings. Same with the A2 chisels I made for myself, and apparently one of my new Japanese Tasai chisels is the same (I've only sharpened once; I have no doubt it'll come into line with the others). I understand that some people might expect the manufacturers to grind away a little more steel, but it's not uncommon that they don't (I prefer to do any fine tuning myself).
BTW, I'm not implying you should be satisfied with your chisel the way it is.

 

[CONGER]

...the chisels need regrinding until you reach good steel

Phew... that is an interesting concept. I would prefer they removed the 'soft' stuff at the factory... and I might even think that the price would justify this! Better still, they might ensure that there is no 'soft' part at all.

Somehow this reminds me of the ULMIA square I bought... should have been 90`... was 87`. I sent it back to them and they ground the 'outside' square... exactly 90`. But the 'inside' remained 87`, so I complained. They (rightly) replied, that they never specified that the square would be 90` both 'inside' and 'out', and my 90` / 87` square was 'in tolerance'.

The LNT chisels page offers 'hardened to Rockwell 60-62', but they do not say where, and naturally I would wish to assume that this was overall, or at least in the 'useable' part, beginning at the bevel ground at the factory.

Somehow, I do not associate LNT with practices like '...the chisels need regrinding until you reach good steel'. I do hope I am thinking correctly.

-gerard- who has sent LNT a gentle reminder by e-mail.

 

[AHoman]

prefer they removed the 'soft' stuff at the factory...

Hi Conger,
Is it definitely 'crumbling' at the edge due to softness? I would imagine that if it's too hard, this might be the result, and that softness would cause a different kind of edge failure?
-Andy

 

[engineer one]

surely it really depends upon how the chisels are hardened??

what i mean is obviously if the chisel is hardened after shaping then it is a tricky process since you have to kind of creep up to the edge, when i was training , we used to heat up the end nearest the handle and let the heat creep up. i wonder thought whether production heat treatment starts with a rectangle and then machines it away.

the point is that even with modern techniques of cryo work, i am sure that occassionally you will get some edge problems which are just due to the heat not creeping all the way properly.

i agree it is boring, but the fact that they will send new ones, and offer advice tells me it is a problem that may well occur, but can be rectified without all the screaming.

paul :wink:

 

[MikeW]

It happens, another manufacturer recently had a similar problem I think, not that they would admit to it in public. Point of my posting though is to ask a posibly stupid question. Are LN are suggesting you grind the chisel back till you hit "good metal"? If so how would you know that you had hit good metal other than by trial and error as you progress up the metal to the handle?
Cheers Mike

Point is, the thinner metal at the tip becomes harder than up above. That's why it may chip initially but after a sharpening or two it becomes less prone to chipping.

This does not indicate something is wrong. Just use the chisels as normal, sharpen a few times as needed and if it does not still meet you expectations, they will still take them back, happily. Or not. Send them back, get your money back and buy a less expensive chisel or an even more expensive one. Doesn't matter.

The LV bench chisels also chipped at first. I honed them a bit steeper than I otherwise would for maybe a month and then I could lower the bevel angle.

The same goes for my old #60 Stanley chisels.

fwiw, a softer chisel will tend to roll at the edge initially. This is one of the main issues with the Sorby paring chisels I purchased. No big deal. Had they continued folding/rolling the edge over I would have asked for a refund at that time. And the vendor would have obliged. Else I would have maybe elected to harden them myself. My understanding is that the Sorby paring chisels now crumble when first purchased.

Take care, Mike

 

[dchenard]

Interesting, I've never had a chisel crumble when new, pounded or not... Good ol' Marples, Buck, LV Japanese DT chisels, Imai.

I bought a LN chisel last week, haven't had a chance to try it yet, we'll see...

DC

 

[CONGER]

In response to AHoman... I described it as 'soft'... of course it may well be brittle because it is 'hard'... and probably is. The term 'soft' arose from my experience when initially re-grinding the LN chisels... originally I wrote

Also surprised (suspicious) at how (VERY) fast the chisels were dealt with on my TORMEK (and later on NORTON stones / paper)... I had anticipated that the A2 steel would be a pig to deal with... but it melted away!

.... the thinner metal at the tip becomes harder than up above

Mike... I understand this... surely worth a user note with the tool from the manufacturer.

Monsieur Chenard... I had a Japanese chisel chip on me... I failed to see what had happened, and continued later to use my LN smoother on the piece. The smoother managed to find some of the chips (as I did)! I had to re-surface the smoother again! I do not like it when a chisel chips!

-gerard- who is definitely not screaming... just a little concerned at what I experienced with my very elegant LN chisels.

 

[bugbear]

Just FYI
This phenomenon has happened to me with other manufacturers. My Pfeil bench chisels (I have 2 of them, bought separately at 2 different locations at different times), for example, didn't start performing to my liking until about 4 sharpenings. Same with the A2 chisels I made for myself, and apparently one of my new Japanese Tasai chisels is the same (I've only sharpened once; I have no doubt it'll come into line with the others). I understand that some people might expect the manufacturers to grind away a little more steel, but it's not uncommon that they don't (I prefer to do any fine tuning myself).

Tempering (heat treatment in general) is influenced by the thickness of the metal; since the edge is thinner (doh!) than the main blade, it behaves slightly differently.

Most Japanese chisels are too hard at the cutting edge when purchased; IIRC Toshio Odate speaks of "taming" a new chisel, often by sharpening a steeper bevel than will be used later in its life.

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

I wonder if the initial grinding process somehow affects the steel but then it would affect all the chisels not just the odd one ( if it is the odd one). FWIW I had a 6mm Marples chisel years ago where the steel was so soft the edge was lost at the merest sniff at a lump of oak, had to bin it in the end 'cos it was next to useless - Rob

 

[Frank D.]

Thanks bugbear,
I'll give it another sharpening and if that doesn't fix things I'll put a little secondary bevel (gasp) on it. I don't think I'll leave it on a tin roof in the sun though.

 

[dchenard]

Well, I must be one lucky dog...

I tried my LN chisel last night, chopping 1/2" square holes in hard maple. Since the factory sharpening was quite good, and with all the discussion over here, I decided to go with the chisel as is.

Well, lo and behold, the chisel performed beautifully, no chipping visible at all. The only problem I had with the chisel is that the handle wouldn't stay in the socket. Inspection suggested that the handle "tenon" was a bit too long, so I cut about 1/8" off, and problem fixed.

I do like that chisel...

Question for those who have had trouble with theirs, when did you acquire them? I'm asking, because I think LN had some QC problems for a little while, I think this coincides with LN moving to their new factory (just an impression). I know that I had to exchange my 60 1/2 bought a year ago because of improper milling (which was done quickly).

DC

 

[Frank D.]

Let me see Denis,
the blade was fine, but the handle fell off... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[dchenard]

Let me see Denis,
the blade was fine, but the handle fell off... :lol: :lol: :lol:

No no, it didn't fall off (that would have scared the bejesus out of me :shock: ), it was not seated in the socket at the time of purchase. I found that odd, but Cosman told me that it would seat itself after pounding on it for a bit.

DC

 

[Paul Kierstead]

My first winter all the handles fell out. A few taps and all was well. Odd that it was too long.

 

[Alf]

Gads, I must have been born under the Lucky Chisel Purchase Star - none of my edges have crumbled or handles fallen off. I feel deprived. Maybe I'll send them back as defectively Just Right. :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[dchenard]

Gads, I must have been born under the Lucky Chisel Purchase Star - none of my edges have crumbled or handles fallen off. I feel deprived. Maybe I'll send them back as defectively Just Right. :lol:

Cheers, Alf

I'd like to see the look on the face of CS staff then! :mrgreen:

DC

 

[Paul Kierstead]

Gads, I must have been born under the Lucky Chisel Purchase Star - none of my edges have crumbled or handles fallen off. I feel deprived. Maybe I'll send them back as defectively Just Right. :lol:

Heh, I expect our winters are a LOT drier then yours, and our summers are close to being as wet. They were set in the summer. If I set a wedge in a plane in the dead of winter and leave it to the summer, it can be a real PITA to get out....