Cheap brand plane experiences

[Mr_P]

Oops, sorry #-o . I'll take my soapbox to another thread :mrgreen: .

Yes I think you should especially as your old soapbox is clearly over engineered unlike todays modern cardboard ones which might be fit for purpose but wouldn't even take the weight of a child let alone a fully grown man carrying a few old stanleys with wooden handles.

Some folk on here are indeed into the expensive end of things, just as some are adverse to second hand.

As I said earlier never used a new cheap or even new expensive plane, one day I might buy an expensive one but can't see any good reason to buy a cheap new one.

 

[Reggie]

It's a forum for people to share woodworking experiences, nothing more nothing less, I don't need a diy forum, I'm trying to make a helpful thread, perhaps one that people can find that will help them not be put off by their limited experience in buying and using tools. The idea for me to get one of the cheap planes originally came from another forum member who had good experiences.

I don't disagree that you can buy planes from ebay, you'll still end up fettling, if you know what you're doing and know what to look for, you could get lucky and pick up a bargain the same day, or you could spend time searching and still buy junk and as mentioned, you'll still have to fettle it, why is that, why shouldn't it be working properly when it turns up? :-D

Either way the thread isn't about what you should buy, it's about what you can do if you have made a 'mistake' and bought a cheap new plane to mitigate any issues. Personally, I didn't see my choice as a mistake, I didn't have to clean any rust off anything, I had to squeeze a yoke, that was the only thing that I had to do and took all of 10 seconds. Sharpening the blade and putting the correct angle on the chipbreaker would be something you'd do anyway.

I don't have issues with 2nd hand either, 90% of my tools are second hand.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'm not sure I agree with the general run of comments. I think Reggie's original question was a perfectly valid one.

To set yourself up with a set of premium bench planes (jack, try and smooth) will take the thick end of £1000. Add on premium saws, chisels, marking-out tools, cramps and all the other bits and bats without which you can't do much serious woodworking, and you have the price of a family car. For someone on a good salary with the mortgage paid down and their kids off their hands, spreading purchases over a few years, that's realistic, but for someone on a more modest salary with mortgage/rent, a couple of young children and all the bills to pay - well, forget it. How can Mr or Mrs Average get a start in proper woodworking? The budget tools offer one way of putting some sort of toolkit together. Sure - I know that good secondhand kit can be had (for very little if you're prepared to be patient and trawl the bootfairs) but not always; the going rate on Ebay for a decent try plane seems to be about £100 or so, with postage on top. But what if you don't want spend time waiting for good cheap stuff to come up?

I know that the budget tools should come with a prominent health warning. They should be regarded as a kit of parts from which somebody with a bit of time and knowledge can assemble a reasonable working tool (most of the time). Isn't that what forums such as this are about - disseminating the required knowledge? Can not somebody relatively new to the craft read up on how to make something half useful out of an unpromising budget offering, and give themselves a set of bench planes for (say) £100 or so, allowing a bit for abrasive papers, a piece of float glass and a file or two? That at least gets them a start in the craft.

Back in the 1980s when I started, I bought a Record 04. It was a clunker, and since the only sources of information I had were a few books (none of which mentioned tuning planes at all) and the Woodworker magazine, I couldn't sort out the problems. It wasn't until a couple of years later that an article about plane tuning appeared in the Woodworker that I gained the knowledge to diagnose the problems and solve them. Nowadays, a few minutes Googling and I'd be well on the way to being clued up.

So in summary, for someone on a tight budget, cheap brand tools plus a bit of knowledge of how to fettle them is a perfectly valid approach to getting together the basis of a toolkit. Sure, the cognoscenti will go for older or pricier, but it's not the only way, is it? And what about the chap who's bought one in all innocence, found it's a clunker, and wants to fix it? Are we just going to say, "Fool - should have bought a LN", or are we going to try and help him make the best of what he has?

 

[Graham Orm]

I'm not sure I agree with the general run of comments. I think Reggie's original question was a perfectly valid one.

To set yourself up with a set of premium bench planes (jack, try and smooth) will take the thick end of £1000. Add on premium saws, chisels, marking-out tools, cramps and all the other bits and bats without which you can't do much serious woodworking, and you have the price of a family car. For someone on a good salary with the mortgage paid down and their kids off their hands, spreading purchases over a few years, that's realistic, but for someone on a more modest salary with mortgage/rent, a couple of young children and all the bills to pay - well, forget it. How can Mr or Mrs Average get a start in proper woodworking? The budget tools offer one way of putting some sort of toolkit together. Sure - I know that good secondhand kit can be had (for very little if you're prepared to be patient and trawl the bootfairs) but not always; the going rate on Ebay for a decent try plane seems to be about £100 or so, with postage on top. But what if you don't want spend time waiting for good cheap stuff to come up?

I know that the budget tools should come with a prominent health warning. They should be regarded as a kit of parts from which somebody with a bit of time and knowledge can assemble a reasonable working tool (most of the time). Isn't that what forums such as this are about - disseminating the required knowledge? Can not somebody relatively new to the craft read up on how to make something half useful out of an unpromising budget offering, and give themselves a set of bench planes for (say) £100 or so, allowing a bit for abrasive papers, a piece of float glass and a file or two? That at least gets them a start in the craft.

Back in the 1980s when I started, I bought a Record 04. It was a clunker, and since the only sources of information I had were a few books (none of which mentioned tuning planes at all) and the Woodworker magazine, I couldn't sort out the problems. It wasn't until a couple of years later that an article about plane tuning appeared in the Woodworker that I gained the knowledge to diagnose the problems and solve them. Nowadays, a few minutes Googling and I'd be well on the way to being clued up.

So in summary, for someone on a tight budget, cheap brand tools plus a bit of knowledge of how to fettle them is a perfectly valid approach to getting together the basis of a toolkit. Sure, the cognoscenti will go for older or pricier, but it's not the only way, is it? And what about the chap who's bought one in all innocence, found it's a clunker, and wants to fix it? Are we just going to say, "Fool - should have bought a LN", or are we going to try and help him make the best of what he has?

I'd say fool for buying the cheapest item he could find without doing any research, when, if he'd asked on here for advice, he could have bought ten times the tool for UNDER £50 on Ebay.
No 4 mint £28 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151058376083?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
No 5 excellent nick buy it now £30 (wont sell for more than £40) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400548777368?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
I'm a tradesman, I buy and use tools until they wear out week to week. The cheapest is ALWAYS without exception junk.

Good luck to the OP if he got a good one, he's done well.

 

[paul saunders]

I'm not sure I agree with the general run of comments. I think Reggie's original question was a perfectly valid one.

To set yourself up with a set of premium bench planes (jack, try and smooth) will take the thick end of £1000. Add on premium saws, chisels, marking-out tools, cramps and all the other bits and bats without which you can't do much serious woodworking, and you have the price of a family car. For someone on a good salary with the mortgage paid down and their kids off their hands, spreading purchases over a few years, that's realistic, but for someone on a more modest salary with mortgage/rent, a couple of young children and all the bills to pay - well, forget it. How can Mr or Mrs Average get a start in proper woodworking? The budget tools offer one way of putting some sort of toolkit together. Sure - I know that good secondhand kit can be had (for very little if you're prepared to be patient and trawl the bootfairs) but not always; the going rate on Ebay for a decent try plane seems to be about £100 or so, with postage on top. But what if you don't want spend time waiting for good cheap stuff to come up?

I know that the budget tools should come with a prominent health warning. They should be regarded as a kit of parts from which somebody with a bit of time and knowledge can assemble a reasonable working tool (most of the time). Isn't that what forums such as this are about - disseminating the required knowledge? Can not somebody relatively new to the craft read up on how to make something half useful out of an unpromising budget offering, and give themselves a set of bench planes for (say) £100 or so, allowing a bit for abrasive papers, a piece of float glass and a file or two? That at least gets them a start in the craft.

Back in the 1980s when I started, I bought a Record 04. It was a clunker, and since the only sources of information I had were a few books (none of which mentioned tuning planes at all) and the Woodworker magazine, I couldn't sort out the problems. It wasn't until a couple of years later that an article about plane tuning appeared in the Woodworker that I gained the knowledge to diagnose the problems and solve them. Nowadays, a few minutes Googling and I'd be well on the way to being clued up.

So in summary, for someone on a tight budget, cheap brand tools plus a bit of knowledge of how to fettle them is a perfectly valid approach to getting together the basis of a toolkit. Sure, the cognoscenti will go for older or pricier, but it's not the only way, is it? And what about the chap who's bought one in all innocence, found it's a clunker, and wants to fix it? Are we just going to say, "Fool - should have bought a LN", or are we going to try and help him make the best of what he has?

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Grayorm - a tradesman's approach has to be different, though, doesn't it? Time is money, so three hours fettling a plane is three hours not earning. It's a different matter for the hobbyist.

See if you can find a decent try Bailey style try plane for £50 including postage. My (admittedly fairly cursory) researches suggested about £100 plus postage.

By the way - you're a bit quicker to call someone I didn't know and had never met a fool than I would be. Different people, different ways I suppose.

 

[Dangermouse]

Ok, the only experience I have of buying a really naff cheap plane was many years ago when I started out on this very long learning curve. It was an Anant no4, I think I got it for around a fiver. I tried to use it and found it wasn't fit for purpose. The blade was made out of toffee, the cap iron didn't fit the blade much and the casting was a laugh. So I used it as best I could for a while until I found an old Record no 4 1/2. Cant remember what I paid for it, not much more than the Anant I expect and I still have it now. Planes like a dream, just used it yesterday to plane a bit of cross grain mahogany and was a joy to use. The only other low end plane I have purchased is a Faithful no 10 carriage plane for £28 on-line. Now I needed this for a job I was doing and didn't think I'd need to use it much again, so didn't want to spend mega bucks on either a new premium or vintage model from e-bay which were making big money. So I saw this new Faithfull plane on ebay and got it. Now I was expecting a real piece of junk, but not so it turned up and looked really good. I had to flatten the sole a bit, nothing more than I have done on vintage planes. The blade was as blunt as a chickens *** and needed flattening, grinding and honing. This made it a really good plane and I still have it and use it a lot. But I have had a look at their other planes and they do not appear to be made as well, must be from another Chinese producer maybe. but I can recommend their no10. So all in all I think you can get a usable really cheap plane, but not very often.

 

[Graham Orm]

CC Any plane has to be fettled, and maintained if you want consistency from it so part of being a tradesman is fettling and sharpening regardless of time taken. The majority of my hand planing takes place in my workshop not on site. I have an electric plane for that with a smoother and a block in the van, that see occasional use. My point was merely that there are plenty of second hand tools that are far better than cheap new stuff. If someone new to woodwork buys a cheap plane and can't get it to work and doesn't know why then he'll soon become disillusioned. Advising a newbie to buy a cheap and cheerful tool because he can't afford better is a mistake in my book. When I was apprentice we were told what tools to save for, not to go out and buy the cheapest we could find.

Scroll down. £39 buy it now....it didn't sell. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stanley-N...T%2F5GSI2GuKxOVWDZAAM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

[Cheshirechappie]

CC Any plane has to be fettled, and maintained if you want consistency from it so part of being a tradesman is fettling and sharpening regardless of time taken. The majority of my hand planing takes place in my workshop not on site. I have an electric plane for that with a smoother and a block in the van, that see occasional use. My point was merely that there are plenty of second hand tools that are far better than cheap new stuff. If someone new to woodwork buys a cheap plane and can't get it to work and doesn't know why then he'll soon become disillusioned. Advising a newbie to buy a cheap and cheerful tool because he can't afford better is a mistake in my book. When I was apprentice we were told what tools to save for, not to go out and buy the cheapest we could find.

Scroll down. £39 buy it now....it didn't sell. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stanley-N...T%2F5GSI2GuKxOVWDZAAM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Well done for finding a Bailey try plane for £50. It's pretty neglected and there's not much blade left, so we could debate whether it's "decent" or not. Presumably that (and the fact that everybody's on holiday) is why it didn't sell.

I make a distinction between sharpening and normal maintenance (which you quite rightly say is a normal part of plane use), and the fettling required to make a plane perform reasonably in the first place.

I don't disagree that there are plenty of decent secondhand tools about, if you know what you're looking at (and how would a newbie know?). However, the subject of the thread is specifically, budget tools. Would I recommend a beginner to buy budget tools? Probably not as first choice, but I say again, when the available cash is limited, budget planes can be an option provided you're prepared to fettle them up. Part of the service that fora such as this can offer to newbies is explaining how to fettle them up.

It's one option. Not necessarily the best option, but nonetheless it's an option open to the person that's strapped for cash but wants to get involved. That's all.

 

[Reggie]

Thank you ChesireChappie, that's exactly it, it's for those people that have bought themselves a cheap new branded plane wilfully, we're beyond chastising anyone for poor decisions, lets just help them make things right A forum member had a cheap plane and said he wasn't having any issues with it at all, so I wilfully bought one of those planes, I specifically bought one to find out really how bad they actually were according to most compared to the experience of someone that actually owned one :-D they're not bad at all, no worse than the 2nd hand no.4 record I had to fettle for myself a few weeks back.

 

[Graham Orm]

Tell you what guys, you stick with, your chinese cheapies and I'll stick with my old second hand stuff. :roll:

 

[lurcher]

i buy planes and chisels at the boot sales this week on ebay i sold a stnanley no4 and a 5.1/2 for £17 plus p@p i have 100% feedback all my tools are honest ones just have a look at tiffney1142 at the moment i have tools listed and if people are not happy i will gladly refund there money todays tools are noware as good as 40 yr ago unless you got alot of spare cash old tools are still a very good investment of money

 

[G S Haydon]

Reggie,

I look forward to seeing how the £22.00 brand new bailey style plane works out for you. Please keep us updated on pros and cons, pictures would be very nice too if you have the time.
I hope I can also encourage you to stay here on UKWS and not to seek out a DIY forum that has been suggested. Looking at your old posts on other topics a DIY forum would not help you very much. In a short time you have got to grips with preparing chisels, morticing by hand, tuning bench planes and building a decent bench =D>

Welcome to the world of woodworking (hammer).

I have decided to join you on your journey. My recently tuned Record #4 will be be returned to the tool chest and I shall dust of my Faithfull #4. We can then both share our experiences with these budget offerings. I personally was very curious about the #4 as it was so cheap.

In the photo below I have the Faithfull #4, My Tuned Up Record #4 and a 1970's Stanley #4. The Stanley is owned by the most all round talented woodworker I have ever met (not me I hasten to add). The condition of the Stanley would raise eyebrows!

My initial observations were satisfactory bearing in mind a price less than £30.00 delivered to my door. It came in a wooden box with green felt inside too, classy :lol: It was rust free, unused and able to be returned to the seller if I found it to be faulty. It also has a warranty for 1 year so should the casting be on the move I have plenty of time to find out and make a claim (whether that claim would find traction who knows)
The plane is heavier than a vintage Stanley or Record. This is due to the thicker castings. Measuring with calipers the casting is more or less 1mm thicker. It has generic hardwood handles with a thick gloopy finish. Although not as pleasing to hold as oiled timber they functioned very well and with enough meat in them that if a user wanted to they could adapt the shape. The only gripe I had was the brass screw on the knob sits rather high, like a tumor or cyst. This is something I aim to address to aid comfort.
The blade has significant milling marks, although by using the ruler trick (rightly or wrongly), these did not cause a problem creating a sharp enough edge. I chose to remove the sharp edges on the blade to aid comfort when the index finger finds it's perch.
The yoke/Y lever is very impressive. It is a solid and heavy weight rather than pressed two part item and engages very nicely with the cap iron. It has plenty of length too so if a thicker blade was used it might not need changing. In this aspect it trumps the Stanley and the Record.
The sole seems flat enough for the current project http://gshaydon.co.uk/blog/the-workbench/.
I will keep you updated on how and when the Faithful lets me down.

In addition I decided to find out what this would be like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Faithfull-No- ... 2c70aa05c9 . Bearing in mind if I don't like the look of it I will return it.

 

[jim_hanna]

When I started out in woodworking I bought one of the B&Q yellow handled no 4s and began to learn. At that stage I wouldn’t have known how to sharpen or use a high quality plane and any investment would have been pointless.

I’ve now got a vintage Stanley 5 ½ and a new Quangsheng 62 LA Jack (from workshop heaven) but, with a Stanley cutter, the B&Q is still a workhorse I use all the time. The old saying about buying the best you can afford is fine for anyone who knows what they need and can use what they buy but cheaper tools have their place for a beginner.

Mind you I also bought a Rolson 3C, brand new in a box, for £5. It was absolute crap and taught me a lot about what to look for in a plane, machining on both sides of the frog would have been useful.

 

[Reggie]

Thanks GS, I look forward to seeing how you get on with the 2 faithfulls, it's an interesting subject that I don't think anyone has approached with objectivity judging by the polarised comments about the various ways of purchasing a plane :-D

Grayorm, I don't know about GS's faithfull planes but mine was made in India, by a company called 'SOBA' not China, the thread was never about the merits of one plane over another and always about what to do if you'd bought one of these planes. Ultimately, I hope that everyone is happy with their plane, wherever it came from

 

[Graham Orm]

Thanks GS, I look forward to seeing how you get on with the 2 faithfulls, it's an interesting subject that I don't think anyone has approached with objectivity judging by the polarised comments about the various ways of purchasing a plane :-D

Grayorm, I don't know about GS's faithfull planes but mine was made in India, by a company called 'SOBA' not China, the thread was never about the merits of one plane over another and always about what to do if you'd bought one of these planes. Ultimately, I hope that everyone is happy with their plane, wherever it came from

Reggie. It was not my intention to have an argument with anyone, there's too much of that here as it is. (My ***** reference was not aimed at you but was in response to CC's generalisation, I'm afraid I rose to his bait). I enjoy your posts and would not suggest that you leave this forum for a minute.

I stand by my point that cheap tools (in my experience) are seldom worth the effort. Good luck with your planes and also to GS. I'll be interested to read your follow ups, and to see pictures if possible....maybe you can change my thinking. :wink:

 

[Reggie]

No worries guys, I've been around the web for some time, I wouldn't just go to another forum because someone suggested I was in the wrong place, especially when I know I'm not

I really do appreciate the individual positions that everyone has on their tools, each one is a unique perspective on their uses. My other hobbies include electronics, not just using them but hacking them to make them better than they were, for instance, we hacked a digital photoframe to take our own version of linux (which we compiled from scratch) opening the device up to do what we wanted it to do. I also need to stress that when I say hacking, I'm not talking about anything nefarious, I really am talking about DIY for electronics software/hardware in much the same way as woodworking, you see a problem, you work out a fix, you make it better than it was.

clearly I don't expect to turn a plane into a lathe but I do expect to use aspects of my hacking skills when doing woodwork, logic is one aspect, relationships between sub-components that go to make up a whole thing is another and (my favourite) poking things with a big stick until they do as they're told :-D

 

[Jacob]

A lot of people can't afford expensive tools (as Cheshirechappie pointed out above) so there's no option. But cheap tools are a good staring point anyway - you can make all your mistakes at low cost and learn a good deal about the tools in the process.
And they are never as bad as they say!
I bought a cheap axminster set of chisels. They are perfectly OK but just look a bit horrid, two tone handle reminiscent of a shell suit. They do the job, the wood can't tell the difference.

 

[Corneel]

My only new, cheap plane is a Stanley Handyman. Not a good plane. I tried all the tuning tricks on it, but never got it to work very well. Pine wasn't too problematic, but anything harder induced terrible chatter. One of the problems is the frog. In a Bailey design the frog steps down near the mouth, to support the blade as deep as possible. Not in the Handyman. The thin blade flaps around in the breeze, so to speak.

After that experience I went with vintage planes. Stanleys, mostly the UK build ones, which can be very good. Minimal tuning needed. I never had money for the LN or LV ones, so I argued, if I have to tune anyway I'd better start with a solid basis that looks good and is a lot cheaper then a new Stanley.

At the other hand I know some professional guys who are very happy with Anant planes. They tuned the snot out of them though.

By far the cheapest way to assemble a kit of planes is woodies. They do have a longer learning curve, but when you master them, they are sweet!

 

[heimlaga]

I bought a cheap block plane (modern Stanley) once. For many years I thought that block planes are awkward creatures suitable only for carpentry until I learned restoring old planes and bought an old one and fixed it up and learned how useful a block plane is. I could have fettled the cheap one but it would still have been inferrior to the old one. It was not worth the effort so I use the cheap one as my on site block plane when doing carpentry. It is good enough for that.

I bought a cheap ship plane secondhand once. It looked unused and I thought I could fettle it. I could have fettled it but that fettling process would have included making a pattern for a properly designed new frog and sending it off to a foundry to have it cast. It would also have included making a new depth adjustment yoke. I figured the plane wasn't worth the effort and sold it on a flea maket for the same sum that I had paid.

Nothing can cure a casting that does not have proper allowances for machining.