charging for EXACT time?? ....

[rafezetter]

The recent thread about charging extra on a job for whatever reason has brought a question regarding a related situation I have myself.

I was asked to make an airing cupboard style shelving system for a bathroom, but because of the nature of how and where the cupboard was built (over the stairs and right next to the toilet perpendicular to it), I'm having to make each shelf as a sliding unit on long (700mm) runners, and make a frame up that can true up the sides front to back and top to bottom.

Anyway, understandably this is taking longer than I would have liked for two reasons but the main one I'd like advice on is this:

"should I charge a customer the exact time it takes to make an item, even though I know a carpenter with a kitted out workshop could do it quicker?"

My time overrun isn't huge, but would amount to maybe an extra three hours or so, and in this instance as it's a friend I'm not overly concerned, but what would be the advice for the future?

Would you add it on, and if questioned about it, take it off again in goodwill or just tell them that's the price and say nothing or just accept the loss is a consequence of not having a kitted workshop yet?

thanks

 

[kostello]

What agreement do you have ?

If it is time and materials surely it should be dependant on now long it takes you?


If you gave a fixed price you'll know better for the next time....

If it is due to a change in the scope of the work or unforseen circumstances then you should charge...

Of course all this is great in theory and real life is a different beast so what actually happens doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the above....






Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[marcros]

I speak as a customer rather than a tradesman, but i would charge for the time it takes you, unless it takes an exceptionally long time because you are a beginner etc, when I think that you probably need to look at the market price and take a reduced hourly rate until you pick up speed. Obviously, all subject to what was agreed, as mentioned by kostello.

Ignoring that it is for a friend, then the fact that it may take you a little longer may not be the prime concern for the customer- after all a fully equipped workshop needs to be charged for as part of the overhead, and finding somebody to do small(ish) jobs is a task in itself. The reason that I would discount the rate if you are slow due to lack of experience is that because if you don't, you risk never picking up the experience. By charging a market rate here, you carry the risk of being a bit slow.

my final point- if the customer is delighted with the job, 3 hours of extra labour is quickly forgotten about. They won't necessarily of priced the job up with a carpenter anyway, so will be unaware.

 

[Myfordman]

I think it also depends on whether the need for the more complex methods were as a result of your oversight when you mentally designed the job for the estimate or if it was something extra the client requested when to came to start the job.

 

[RobinBHM]

I think it also depends on whether the need for the more complex methods were as a result of your oversight when you mentally designed the job for the estimate or if it was something extra the client requested when to came to start the job.

That sums it up pretty well.

The problem with awkward jobs is the customer wants a fixed price, but they dont want to pay the high price that includes quite a bit of contingency.

The fairest way to deal with it, is to discuss with the customer the work will over run as soon as you realise and give them an indication of additional cost. A reasonable customer will probably pay a bit more if the job is more awkward than anticipated, even if you gave a fixed price at the start. If it isnt clear cut then maybe meet half way on cost.

I dont think it is fair to wait until the end and hold your hand for more money. That always smacks of builders tendering cheap and making it up with 'extras' (althougn I supect overall, it is customers that win out here, with all those 'just jobs' that get added on casually during the job and dont end up added to the invoice as they are forgotten).

 

[Terry - Somerset]

As a customer I generally prefer fixed prices. I expect tradesmen to stick with what they quoted unless:

- there are additional items on a larger job in which case I make it clear that I need to be alerted as they arise
- additional extra complexity only evident after the job has started when I would accept a reasonable additional charge

However I would probably be rather more flexible with a friend, particularly if I knew they were a little inexperienced.

Terry

 

[rafezetter]

Thanks for all the replies, I won't give (my usual overly) a detailed reply but you've answered all I need about this and how to address it in future.

If I could ask you indulgence again, would you say around £100 including materials (and painted + fitted) was an ok price for 3x slatted shelves 700mm deep by 675mm wide, sitting inside a framework of sorts on full extension runners each - or alternatively how long do you think it would take you to make those from PAR yellow pine?

 

[petermillard]

...would you say around £100 including materials (and painted + fitted) was an ok price for 3x slatted shelves 700mm deep by 675mm wide, sitting inside a framework of sorts on full extension runners each...

Seems very low to me; hardware and materials are going to set you back ~£60 or so, then you have to make, paint and fit them, all for £40? Also, don't underestimate how long it takes to paint slatted shelves. Or how long it's going to take to fit shelves on runners, esp. when they're not in a carcass you made yourself.

If it's for friends, then I'd do it as 'expenses only' - or if they're close friends, just give it to them, but let them deal with the painting themselves

HTH Pete

 

[Zeddedhed]

would you say around £100 including materials (and painted + fitted) was an ok price for 3x slatted shelves 700mm deep by 675mm wide, sitting inside a framework of sorts on full extension runners each - or alternatively how long do you think it would take you to make those from PAR yellow pine?

How much did the materials cost? (or how much would they cost if you bought them - thinking you may have used up some of your own stock here????)
How much is your hourly/daily rate?
How long did it take you?

Do the maths.....
...bingo!! Thats the right price. Unless you want to add on profit, overheads (tools etc) and all the extra time that ends up being spent on little projects - sourcing/collecting materials, 'thinking' or planning time, etc etc. Fuel to get to the job, mileage for wear and tear on vehicle. The list is depressingly long. And your price sounds extremely low.

 

[rafezetter]

would you say around £100 including materials (and painted + fitted) was an ok price for 3x slatted shelves 700mm deep by 675mm wide, sitting inside a framework of sorts on full extension runners each - or alternatively how long do you think it would take you to make those from PAR yellow pine?

How much did the materials cost? (or how much would they cost if you bought them - thinking you may have used up some of your own stock here????)
How much is your hourly/daily rate?
How long did it take you?

Do the maths.....
...bingo!! Thats the right price. Unless you want to add on profit, overheads (tools etc) and all the extra time that ends up being spent on little projects - sourcing/collecting materials, 'thinking' or planning time, etc etc. Fuel to get to the job, mileage for wear and tear on vehicle. The list is depressingly long. And your price sounds extremely low.

I think you are right about the price being low in light of what you've said, yes I used some leftover materials as I was painting it; but I never thought that you could / should price for "design / thinking time" but it makes sense now you mention it - someone has to and she hasn't. I've not given her a final price yet for this item so I should take more of what you've mentioned into consideration.

thanks again.

 

[Mark-numbers]

When we price jobs I take into account the following

Design
Materials
Setting out
Machining
Assembly
Protection (bubble wrap)
Transport
Fixing on site

I will put hours to all this, multiply it by hourly rate (this should include over head)

I will then add a profit of whatever I think will get me the contract (it's never at cost these days)

Materials are almost inconsequential as they are the cheapest element of a job, but they have a perceived cost by the public, so therefore a market value. For augments sake - decent redwood would be a couple of quid a metre, american oak probably double however, on 1.5 metres of material it would hardly be noticed. But the labour will remain the same.