Centauro 400 SSP Bandsaw (does anyone have a manual!)

[Ttrees]

Looks like it's about the same amount or greater of a lip as what I've ended up with, which looks to be 0.4 at the least to my eyes, and a rough guess as of yet.
I haven't took a piccy after finishing up, but staring at a glance from some video, mine looks less than that.


You might be able to try fitting some shim stock right off the bat with that, if that's what you're thinking.
I got no hint of discrepancy regarding anything being off centre, whilst getting the bore wide enough for the shim stock,
It's certainly worth a shot IMO, nothing to loose.

I only opened out the "outer side of the circlip" to get the tool into the bore,
and if I'd seen the same state of affair as you, or had thinner stainless I'd have tried that
and inserted it prior to installing bearings.

You also could see whether you can get a narrower bearing the same width as the spacer,
I've got one of those, not read the jargon though, this is just to tear apart for the outer race,
as pairing more than two together in sequence is not recommended...

and you could also check whether or not if your spacer is keeping the bearings tight against the circlips, or if there is some play.
(should you be worried about the shim stock walking inside the bore)
Also noting some bearings have a sharper radius to them than others, which may have some impact regarding shim width.
I think those Koyo ones are fairly sharpish, compared to SKF explorers,
if you were to use one for the outer race.

Here's a thread which might be of interest.
https://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=180094&start=15
Tom

 

[sams93]

Looks like it's about the same amount or greater of a lip as what I've ended up with, which looks to be 0.4 at the least to my eyes, and a rough guess as of yet.
I haven't took a piccy after finishing up, but staring at a glance from some video, mine looks less than that.


You might be able to try fitting some shim stock right off the bat with that, if that's what you're thinking.
I got no hint of discrepancy regarding anything being off centre, whilst getting the bore wide enough for the shim stock,
It's certainly worth a shot IMO, nothing to loose.

I only opened out the "outer side of the circlip" to get the tool into the bore,
and if I'd seen the same state of affair as you, or had thinner stainless I'd have tried that
and inserted it prior to installing bearings.

You also could see whether you can get a narrower bearing the same width as the spacer,
I've got one of those, not read wot their called though,
and you could also check whether or not if your spacer is keeping the bearings tight against the circlips, or if there is some play.
(should you be worried about the shim stock walking inside the bore)
Also noting some bearings have a sharper radius to them than others, which may have some impact regarding shim width.
I think those Koyo ones are fairly sharpish, compared to SKF explorers,
if you were to use one for the outer race.

Here's a thread which might be of interest.
https://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=180094&start=15
Tom

Hi.

It doesn't seem that there is any evidence of assymetry, it seems everything is centred. I don't understand whether the bearing groove is supposed to be there or not, it looks like it was machined like that?

"I only opened out the "outer side of the circlip" to get the tool into the bore,
and if I'd seen the same state of affair as you, or had thinner stainless I'd have tried that
and inserted it prior to installing bearings." - @Ttrees I'm not sure i understand what you mean here?

Would the bearings would need to be tight against the circlips - if they are a press fit then presumably the circlips are just there for extra security.

 

[Ttrees]

It doesn't seem that there is any evidence of assymetry, it seems everything is centred. I don't understand whether the bearing groove is supposed to be there or not, it looks like it was machined like that?

It's loose from your video, and was tight beyond the circlip

"I only opened out the "outer side of the circlip" to get the tool into the bore,
and if I'd seen the same state of affair as you, or had thinner stainless I'd have tried that
and inserted it prior to installing bearings." - @Ttrees I'm not sure i understand what you mean here?

I didn't have, say 0.2 shim stock to try see if I could fit the bearing in, so had
to enlarge the bore, and seeing as I don't have a lathe,
needed to get beyond the original bore ID (on the outer side of the circlips)
and then some more in order to achieve the fit.

Would the bearings would need to be tight against the circlips - if they are a press fit then presumably the circlips are just there for extra security.

You could question why bearing spacers get repaired, and have your answer to that one.

Good luck
Tom

 

[sams93]

It's loose from your video, and was tight beyond the circlip

I didn't have, say 0.2 shim stock to try see if I could fit the bearing in, so had
to enlarge the bore, and seeing as I don't have a lathe,
needed to get beyond the original bore ID (on the outer side of the circlips)
and then some more in order to achieve the fit.

You could question why bearing spacers get repaired, and have your answer to that one.

Good luck
Tom

I took out the bearing that was seated happily and the hub fits tightly on that side, it's a 42.00mm ID hub. The part of the hub on the outside of the circlips is also 42.00mm on that side.

On the 'loose' side. The part on the inside of the circlips where the bearing seats (green mark) is 42.28mm, I can just hardly about get a 0.28mm feeler gauge in to the gap, definitely not a 0.30. It seems I would need shim material about 0.14-0.15mm thick in order to shim it. The part of the hub to the outer side of the circlips is 42.00mm.

This sounds like an identical situation to the one that you were in (although I think you said you needed 0.4mm shims)

A coke can is apparently about 0.13mm thick, so I could give that a go as a shim material, but being soft metal I don't think it would make a good repair. I am thinking I might be able to use something like this instead (LINK). I'll be interested in people's opinions on the matter and if felt suitable I will order some.

Separately, I cannot understand how this would have happened? What would cause the hub to wear out in such a way, with almost no evidence of damage or wear on the bearing!

 

[Inspector]

Locktite 603 is a bearing and bushing retaining compound. It will hold slip/loose fit bearings. Clean both surfaces, carefully and sparingly apply the Locktite and leave it. Once set that bearing is not going anywhere. If you have so much clearance that you need to shim it will hold the shim and bearing in place so they don't move. With it alone you may not need the shim. Read up on it or other similar products. LOCTITE® 603 Cessna specified it to hold bushings in titanium flap track fittings we used to make. If I remember correctly they were .2mm to .3mm difference between the hole and the stainless bushing.

Pete

 

[sams93]

Locktite 603 is a bearing and bushing retaining compound. It will hold slip/loose fit bearings. Clean both surfaces, carefully and sparingly apply the Locktite and leave it. Once set that bearing is not going anywhere. If you have so much clearance that you need to shim it will hold the shim and bearing in place so they don't move. With it alone you may not need the shim. Read up on it or other similar products. LOCTITE® 603 Cessna specified it to hold bushings in titanium flap track fittings we used to make. If I remember correctly they were .2mm to .3mm difference between the hole and the stainless bushing.

Pete

I'm quite concerned about being able to press in the bearing AND shim material together without them separating as I press. That's a potential solution which doesn't involve any need for shim stock at all.

How would I ensure that the bearing is mounted centrally with the loctite compound?

I wonder if it would be worth using 0.10mm shim material to help it remain central, AND then using the loctite as well… That way I would be reducing the gap using the thin shim material, which the Loctite 603 says it would prefer, but presumably have a relatively easy time getting it in compared to using 0.14 or 0.15 shim material.

If I ******ed it up, then is it possible to remove bearings which have been secured using the loctite? edit - I see I can heat it up to remove if needed.

I notice from the TDS that it is happy with a 0.15mm gap, but not delighted with anything much larger.

I have a 42.00mm bearing to mount in a 42.3mm hub (approx), making my gap 0.15mm, so that sounds ok.

Thanks!

 

[Ttrees]

I'd guess this is what the 0.2mm looks like, but it's maybe down to my pictures.
Can get you some photos of it later, as said it appears like I've approached where you're at now.
Nothing stopping you from trying, it'll only be difficult (concerning that specific journal)
beyond where the circlip is, so not crucial.


I ended up removing two layers of masking tapes worth, so that would be an added 4 layers of tape wider than the original bore spec.

 

[Ttrees]

I'm quite concerned about being able to press in the bearing AND shim material together without them separating as I press.

As mentioned you shouldn't be able to do so, without enlarging the bore
beyond the cir-clip to the same amount.
I think I might have copped why you are thinking this, and it's down to the play in the cir-clip
and the slots, which explains why you don't see a ridge there either.

How are you measuring the bore where the bearing seats,
I've used ID measuring devices, but it was in a tool room.

Separately, I cannot understand how this would have happened? What would cause the hub to wear out in such a way, with almost no evidence of damage or wear on the bearing!

Them's foightin words!

 

[Inspector]

sams93 "How would I ensure that the bearing is mounted centrally with that though?"

If you are really worried that the bearing will not centre then cut three narrow strips off the shim. Put them 120º apart and slip the bearing in place. Wipe off any excess Locktite and then pull the shim tabs out carefully. The bearing should stay centred if sitting flat. I think the bearing would self centre with the Locktite only especially as the chamfer/radius on the outside race edge is going to centre on the edge of the ledge between the two bushings so the shims wouldn't be needed.

Pete

 

[sams93]

As mentioned you shouldn't be able to do so, without enlarging the bore
beyond the cir-clip to the same amount.
I think I might have copped why you are thinking this, and it's down to the play in the cir-clip
and the slots, which explains why you don't see a ridge there either.

How are you measuring the bore where the bearing seats,
I've used ID measuring devices, but it was in a tool room.


Them's foightin words!

Yes sorry I meant even with the bore outside the circlip enlarged. I plan to enlarge that carefully with a file.

Am measuring the bore where the bearing seats based on feeler gauge that I can fit. I appreciate it's rough, but if my intention is to use them to repair the damage as well then any error is presumably irrelevant.

 

[sams93]

sams93 "How would I ensure that the bearing is mounted centrally with that though?"

If you are really worried that the bearing will not centre then cut three narrow strips off the shim. Put them 120º apart and slip the bearing in place. Wipe off any excess Locktite and then pull the shim tabs out carefully. The bearing should stay centred if sitting flat. I think the bearing would self centre with the Locktite only especially as the chamfer/radius on the outside race edge is going to centre on the edge of the ledge between the two bushings so the shims wouldn't be needed.

Pete

Hi

Thanks for this - makes sense. What is the point in me then removing the shim?

I was thinking of using a piece of shim slightly smaller than 0.15 (say 0.10) to reduce the gap, and making it all easy to insert and then using this loctite to hold everything in place. You are suggesting that I should forego the shim material all together, except for temporary alignment purposes.

Thanks all (particularly @Inspector and @Ttrees) for the continued advice on this, I really appreciate the expertise and experience being shared on this forum, I learn so much each day from it!

 

[Ttrees]

@sams93 I'll get you a photo later on of how things look.
I reckon you have more wear than you think, and would imagine you could forego
having to remove any material from the bore with a 0.4mm shim as it might be stout enough
to insert beforehand.
I'm guessing you're worried about pushing it beyond the lip, wanting to press in all together,
perhaps others who've mentioned this bodge before could answer,
some of those with experience in industry are on TWH2 nowadays.

I'll get the code for the slimmer ones, to try find what de-notes the slim profile,
Seemingly it may be too wide, but perhaps not if you can find a version of that bearing which fits your wheel.
As for using it complete and mating them so the inner races for the required gap are present, if paired, or just using the outer race, I'd be interested in others thoughts on it,
and whether doing so might damage the cages or not.
It might be a failsafe if nothing else, or a real help for keeping things central if using bearing compound with the shim stock.

Tom

 

[sams93]

@sams93 I'll get you a photo later on of how things look.
I reckon you have more wear than you think, and would imagine you could forego
having to remove any material from the bore with a 0.4mm shim as it might be stout enough
to insert beforehand.

I don't intend on removing any material from the bore, just the bit outside the circlip to allow for me to insert the bearing with whatever shim material I end up deciding to use (and/or loctite).

I'm guessing you're worried about pushing it beyond the lip, wanting to press in all together,
perhaps others who've mentioned this bodge before could answer,
some of those with experience in industry are on TWH2 nowadays.

I agree that the lip will help to both center the bearing and stop it being pressed too far. I am concerned that when I try and press the bearing and shim material wrapped round it, they will not move as one, so i'll end up pushing the bearing and the shim material won't go with it.

I'll get the code for the slimmer ones, to try find what de-notes the slim profile,
Seemingly it may be too wide, but perhaps not if you can find a version of that bearing which fits your wheel.
As for using it complete and mating them so the inner races for the required gap are present, if paired, or just using the outer race, I'd be interested in others thoughts on it,
and whether doing so might damage the cages or not.
It might be a failsafe if nothing else, or a real help for keeping things central if using bearing compound with the shim stock.

Tom

 

[Ttrees]

I'd consider leaving the outer portion of the bore intact,
as it may be an aid for alignment using the old bearings, should a shim need some
help with bearing locking compound, it might help until it sets.
Not to remind you again this is optimistic, so if all else fails, the original bore intact
may well help an engineer, should it come to that.

I've seen some folks on YT true wheels straight from the casting,
and reckon some might have been a bit eager to get started, which has a knock on effect
regarding doing that well or not.

PS Which is kinda why I gave you the link to removable tires, should these need removal
for a big lathe if things don't end up right.

Tom

 

[Inspector]

Hi

...... What is the point in me then removing the shim?

I would use the shims standing vertical rather than wrapped because of the same fear you have of the shim shifting. With it sticking up you have something to grip with pliers to pull out. If you want to use the three bits and are confident you can get it placed then sure or just wrap it with the shim all the way around. My luck guaranties something shifting out of place necessitating pulling it all apart.

I think if you are going to this much trouble with the bearings you should get new ones from a bearing house. (I'm not going to reread the last six dozen posts to verify that you are/are not replacing them.) They don't cost much and if the old ones are reinstalled and fail in a few months then you may have more damage to the wheel that can only be fixed by some expensive machining along with the bushings to get back to factory size. Your call though.

Pete

 

[Ttrees]

I would use the shims standing vertical rather than wrapped because of the same fear you have of the shim shifting. With it sticking up you have something to grip with pliers to pull out. If you want to use the three bits and are confident you can get it placed then sure or just wrap it with the shim all the way around. My luck guaranties something shifting out of place necessitating pulling it all apart.

I think if you are going to this much trouble with the bearings you should get new ones from a bearing house. (I'm not going to reread the last six dozen posts to verify that you are/are not replacing them.) They don't cost much and if the old ones are reinstalled and fail in a few months then you may have more damage to the wheel that can only be fixed by some expensive machining along with the bushings to get back to factory size. Your call though.

Pete

Rest assured Pete, Sams93 has ordered new ones.
Your comment has much relevance to me though, as I'm thinking it would be a headache
to have a hidden bearing if I were to stuff another in there.
Should it freeze it could cause it all sorts of headache, which may also include the shaft.
I think more'a toaster cuttin is in order for me.

Cheers
Tom

 

[Ttrees]

Here's what things look like ATM
That outer race I only popped in to check the fit, it got a bit snug, so I had to resort to using the bore opener to draw all out.
You might notice the scrape up the bore from some bit of crud from a previous numpty move
of not removing the wheel retaining bolt & washer earlier on,
(The bore tool takes a bit of effort to remove)

Not really noticed as much as I was expecting TBH, and this is trying to highlight it too!.

Just for you @sams93! (I jest)
I decided to see if I could infact try installing the bearing with the shim kinda in place,
holding it wit me fingers from the back.
Well I think I may have been optimistic about that, but there still may be the smallest bit of hope yet, which I'll get to, though I'm less confident than before.
Besides, I don't believe you've mentioned if both bearings may need attention to be at this malarkey.
(I'll mention the thread on TWH2, which might highlight how much importance the rear bearing is for the upper wheel, and mention I only noticed play after flipping the wheel back to front)

Not got a good piccy of the front of the bearing at this exact moment,
but it would seem the right fit at the start, and seemingly central whilst sitting on the bench...

However it seems I may have to give it another lick at the bottom, with some narrow strips of abrasive again, and double check my shim to see if parallel and laying flat,
as I'm getting the impression from the shim that the bore is tapered, shim flipped upside down to double check.
It didn't budge much whilst removing the bearing,

And the ends still seemingly butting up fairly squarely on the bearing, when wrapped tightly by hand.
Interesting to note how much it lengthens out !

Not sure how slim these bearings get, the left was for the motor 17mm wide,
The middle one is the 6206 IIRC wheel bearing which is 16mm wide,
and the slim one being 14mm

Be interesting to know how slim of a bearing can be got which has the same OD as the 6004.

If everything fails regarding keeping/installing the shim in place, then there is other bearings out there which could possibly be a fit.
Member Clogs mentioned these type before from a Nissan note wheel bearing.
I dunno anything more about that, as I've got very newish bearings which I'd be miffed about not using.

So apologies for not getting you a shot yet, of what I think 0.4mm of bore wear is,
but I reckon your wheel has about that.

All the best
Tom

 

[Inspector]

I came across something I've never heard of before on another forum that might be useful to those of you with worn bearing or seal seats/bores/surfaces. They are called Speedi Sleeves speedi sleeves, Redi-sleeves or repair sleeves. You might still have to machine or grind the surface to make it ready for the sleeve but it simplifies repairs on stuff that is not available or too expensive to replace.

Pete

 

[sams93]

I came across something I've never heard of before on another forum that might be useful to those of you with worn bearing or seal seats/bores/surfaces. They are called Speedi Sleeves speedi sleeves, Redi-sleeves or repair sleeves. You might still have to machine or grind the surface to make it ready for the sleeve but it simplifies repairs on stuff that is not available or too expensive to replace.

Pete

I spotted these Speedi sleeves when I was looking at possible solutions over the past few weeks, think I might have put a link to one brand in a previous post. Trouble is they are all designed to be fitted to a shaft, so I’m not sure if I’d be able to use them the other way round by fitting them in the hub in my case.

Currently my plan is:

• File the area ‘outside the circlip’ to approximately the same diameter as the worn out bit, such that I can easily insert the shim stock around the bearing.
• Use 3 (or maybe more) pieces of 0.10mm shim stock from a piece of feeler gauge to make sure the bearing is held central in the hub. 0.15mm might be a bit too tight (i have 0.14mm clearance by the looks of things, but the bearing compound should make up for the gap left by 0.10mm shim). I’ll use them vertically like @Inspector suggests, and then cut them to be flush with the bearing with a cut off bit on the dremel.
• Use loctite 603 retaining compound to set the bearing in place.

I did think about whether to insert the hood bearing first, then the shaft, and then use the shaft to help hold the loose bearing central as I insert it. I think doing this adds too many uncertainties and has potential to be faff with lots of things moving around at the same time, so that’s why I don’t plan to go down this route.


I find it very interesting that both myself and @Ttrees have effectively identical problems with our saws, I really do want to understand the mechanism by which the issue has arisen.

 

[sams93]

Here's what things look like ATM
That outer race I only popped in to check the fit, it got a bit snug, so I had to resort to using the bore opener to draw all out.
You might notice the scrape up the bore from some bit of crud from a previous numpty move
of not removing the wheel retaining bolt & washer earlier on,
(The bore tool takes a bit of effort to remove)
View attachment 159074

Not really noticed as much as I was expecting TBH, and this is trying to highlight it too!.
View attachment 159075View attachment 159076

Just for you @sams93! (I jest)
I decided to see if I could infact try installing the bearing with the shim kinda in place,
holding it wit me fingers from the back.
Well I think I may have been optimistic about that, but there still may be the smallest bit of hope yet, which I'll get to, though I'm less confident than before.
Besides, I don't believe you've mentioned if both bearings may need attention to be at this malarkey.
(I'll mention the thread on TWH2, which might highlight how much importance the rear bearing is for the upper wheel, and mention I only noticed play after flipping the wheel back to front)

Not got a good piccy of the front of the bearing at this exact moment,
but it would seem the right fit at the start, and seemingly central whilst sitting on the bench...
View attachment 159077View attachment 159078

However it seems I may have to give it another lick at the bottom, with some narrow strips of abrasive again, and double check my shim to see if parallel and laying flat,
as I'm getting the impression from the shim that the bore is tapered, shim flipped upside down to double check.
It didn't budge much whilst removing the bearing,

View attachment 159079

And the ends still seemingly butting up fairly squarely on the bearing, when wrapped tightly by hand.
Interesting to note how much it lengthens out !
View attachment 159080

Not sure how slim these bearings get, the left was for the motor 17mm wide,
The middle one is the 6206 IIRC wheel bearing which is 16mm wide,
and the slim one being 14mm

Be interesting to know how slim of a bearing can be got which has the same OD as the 6004.

View attachment 159081

If everything fails regarding keeping/installing the shim in place, then there is other bearings out there which could possibly be a fit.
Member Clogs mentioned these type before from a Nissan note wheel bearing.
I dunno anything more about that, as I've got very newish bearings which I'd be miffed about not using.


View attachment 159082

So apologies for not getting you a shot yet, of what I think 0.4mm of bore wear is,
but I reckon your wheel has about that.

All the best
Tom

What is the thinking behind going for a slim bearing @Ttrees?. I have just purchased like for like replacements for mine (6004RS). I went for KOYO as that was the original and I understand they are a good brand.

Sam