Cargo trailers - advice sought please

[chris_d]

Dear All,

I am teetering on the brink of buying/building a cargo trailer. As I have no experience of using one I would appreciate your input.

Mandatory requirements:
1. Carry at least 1000Kg of sand/gravel/topsoil.
2. Bed size suitable to transport a ride on mower with dimensions 109x211cm.
3. Gravity tipper function.

Optional requirements:
4. Carry two 30"x8' oak logs (~1400Kg).
5. Ram tipper function (replaces 3 above).
6. Dual axle for greater stability.

I've been motivated to this position due to:
- A desire to buy landscaping/building materials at will;
- Being fed up with using an alaskan mill (hand-held) to process oak logs - now wishing to send them to a local sawyer.

However, these immediate motivations will be relatively short lived ie last no more than another two years whilst I renovate my property. After this, the trailer would be used infrequently to take my mower for blade sharpening, trips to the household recycling centre and the yearly horse hay purchase. Hence I have a dilemma, do I invest in a trailer or tolerate the inconvenience/cost of merchant deliveries and mower/sawyer collections? I'm not expecting you to answer that but my decision is heavily influenced by the cost-benefit trade-off of specific trailer types which is where I'd appreciate some guidance.

I believe that an 8'x5' Ifor Williams tipping trailer, http://www.iwt.co.uk/products/tippers/tt85ge.htm, ticks all the boxes but costs a ludicrous ~£2.5K. Going slightly more generic, a TipTek (http://www.trailertek.com/the-tiptek-tipping-trailer/) still costs ~£2K which still seems a bit OTT.

If I compromise on the tipping function, settling for this sort of thing: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150354891226 which I don't really know how to describe (gravity tipper? ie no ram) then that will cost ~£800. Is this style of tipper useless ie do you spend most of your time stood on it with a shovel?

If I were to consider a single axle trailer then are they impossible and/or too dangerous to tip by yourself?

I've looked into making a trailer but when you total the cost of a decent welding kit and all the equipment required for legal compliance then the ~£800 trailer above seems good value since I also save my precious time - but can you make a decent looking tipping trailer for less?

Finally, should I be less scared of buying a second hand trailer? It is not really the thought of buying a dud but the hassle of travelling to see incorrectly described items that puts me off. Sorry this turned into an essay.

Any advice most welcome,
C

P.S. I hoping NightTrain will have something to say given his monster DIY trailers....

 

[Night Train]

You called? :lol:

Firstly, do you have a vehicle that can legally tow what you want? Check your vehicle hand book to ensure that you know what the maximum weight is.
Secondly, are you legally allowed to tow at that weight? You need to have passed your driving test before 01/01/1997 to be able to drive up to 8.25 tonnes vehicle and trailer. After that date and you are limited to 3.5 tonnes vehicle and 750kg trailer and you will need to take a trailer test if you want to tow more.

Thirdly, are you able to make a trailer? If you have the skills and ability then it becomes an option, if you do not then you risk building something that is at best illegal and at worst dangerous.

What you want is possible. Adding tipping adds greatly to unladen weight as you will have two chassis frames and a ram and pump though there are ways around this. An extra axle will add stability but also add weight. It will be your 1 - 1.4 tonne capacity plus 400-800kg or more.

Ways to create a tipper.
Conventionally a tipper has a chassis onto which is a frame that supports the tipper load and the body and the pivot points so it is a heavy set of items. It will also need legs on the back end to support the weight as it tips to stop the hitch pulling upwards on the vehicle as the weight shift to behind the axle.

Another way, and this will need some engineering and loading designs, is to simulate a tilt bed car transporter trailer. Here the flat bed and axles are one unit and the A frame drawbar is a separate item that pivots onto the axle. A small ram pushed between the A frame and the front end of the flat bed and this tilts the trailer to allow cars to be loaded. Now if you replaced the bed with a dropside body and then had a longer ram you could keep tipping the body by pushing down on the A frame. Eventually the trailer wheels would lift off the ground and the tail end of the trailer will need to drag closer to the towing vehicle. You can see why some design needs to go into this.
There is only so much movement from the towing coupling on the tow ball, not enough to allow the trailer to tip. The back end of the tipper body will need rollers to allow it to move forwards and backwards during the tipping process. The range of movement at the tipper ram is great and so it must be designed to allow sufficient range of movement to prevent damage to the ram. Axle location is important as it will affect tipping angle, nose weight and tipping and driving stability.
Overall, it is complex, so complex I couldn't be bothered and stuck to loading in bags and tipping the bags manually.

Cost.
New trailers are really expensive but they are good, just maybe not good for your specific needs unless they were even more expensive.
It is possible to find new bits cheap on Ebay.
For example, I use 1300kg auto reverse damped couplings on my trailers. They Ebay around £250-£300 but occasionally you find ones that start at 99p and no one needed one that week and so sell for 99p. Sometimes someone has a job lot to sell but they are in the middle of Wales. Only 50 miles away but maybe 3-4 hours of driving. They don't fetch much either. I bought both mine for less then £40 each. The old ones that came off the caravan chassis I started with I sold for nearer £70 because people don't want to drive far and I live in a city.
I get my steel from a scrap yard. I go in regularly and with kind permission stand at a safe distance from the scrap and point out what I want and the chap gets the crane to pick it out for me thus satisfying H&S inspectors. :wink:
I can get away with building like this because I carry a detailed plan in my head of what I am building and I can adapt my plan to whatever I find at the scrap yard. I am also on the look out for all and everything that may be useful. The four 8'x4' sheets of 3mm aluminium came out of a skip for free, the pallet crates cost £5 but I had to drive to Birmingham to get them. Sometimes on Ebay a 'shop' will sell off old stock trailer lighting units cheap because they have been up graded to LED versions. If you keep a look out, even at this stage, you can have most bits and pieces before the build even begins.

Let me know if you want some more help or to discuss further.
Also have a look on the NTTA website.

 

[OLD]

Years ago when i raced cars i hired a car trailer a 'brian james' i think took dimensions and did a drawing purchased some 'indispension' units, s/h hubs, brakes and wheels and welded up a very good trailer.
You may like to consider this for your requirement

 

[dickm]

Indespension (the folk who make those rubber-in-torsion suspension units) used to sell both designs and kits to make trailers. They had a tipper, but I don't think it was as big as you are seeking.
Secondhand is possible, but you need to inspect VERY carefully. Especially up here with all the road salt, rust is the big enemy.
There are a number of independent trailer manufacturers scattered around the country, but Ifor Williams seem like the top marque. Every farm and business up here seems to have one!

 

[cambournepete]

Also look at Brenderup trailers. I have a small one (1150) and it's close to perfect.K
Not cheap, but very stable and easy to tow.
I hardly notice I'm towing mine unless it quite full and the road particularly bad - e.g the A34 near Oxford.

I'd also think carefully how much you need the tipping mechanism - if it's full of a ton of gravel how will you control the tip?

 

[chris_d]

Many thanks to all of you that replied!

Reading the NTTA website (thanks NT) has really 'put the cat amongst the pidgeons' - I only have a class B license and my best towing vehicle can only haul a braked trailer with a MAM of 1800Kg, unbraked at 750Kg. This revelation rules out the £800 unbraked gravity tipper referenced above and also means that I'm unlikely to be able to tow a 1400Kg load since some light weight materials would be required to engineer a robust tipper with an unladen mass of 400Kg but this might be possible if I build it myself.

Night Train: Your positivity in describing economical sources for subcomponents and materials has re-kindled my interest in a DIY build. I'm definitely capable of designing and fabricating a trailer since I have an MEng degree and an engineering career coupled with plenty of arc and OxyAcet welding experience. Minor caveat - I don't currently own any welding kit since I've managed to borrow for odd jobs to date so I'll have to factor this additional cost into the overall build budget. I'll do some more reading into tipping designs and components and get back to you for a design review if that is ok?

Thanks again,
Chris

 

[Night Train]

Feel free to run things by me. I'm by no means an expert but being Autistic I am a bit OTT in researching things that interest me. I also studied Mech Eng, at Middlesex Poly as it was then, but never finished it due to work pressures.


You can do a lot of work with very minimal tooling.

I used to have a lot of equipment for metal bashing but I now only use a small arc welder, angle grinder, a hacksaw and a pillar drill. I sometimes use an electric jigsaw but metal cutting blades don't last too long with 8mm thick stock, I can often cut it quicker by hand. Oh, I also have a Dad who quite happily wire brushes rust and paints everything for me.

 

[chris_d]

Feel free to run things by me.

Thank you, very much appreciated!

Oh, I also have a Dad who quite happily wire brushes rust and paints everything for me.

You're lucky, I had a wrinkly helper but he is currently out of order through a combination of sciatica, tinnitus and a slipped disc - poor bugger...

Cheers,
Chris

 

[Night Train]

If you weren't so far away I have a small arc welder I have spare. I have a few knocking about. Mainly to save lugging one around I have one in each area I work in, much like having a Henry vacuum cleaner on each floor of the house!

 

[Night Train]

Oh, another thing about sourcing parts.

One of my trailers has a roof and front panel made from the roofs of a LWB Land Rover and a SWB Land Rover respectively.
When I looked for roofs they were around £100+. Generally they were carefully removed from damaged vehicles and sold as a replacment panel so had a premium.
I looked for hard tops instead, a roof panel with sides.
These are generally removed when someone want to install a roll cage and canvas to go trialing. It is a big bit of metal that is in their way so it is sold cheap. Also few are put back on old Land Rovers so there is not much demand.

The long one cost me £15 and I sold the glazed sides for £35. The short one cost me £5 and I sold the sides on that for £25. The side panels are generally replacement panels so, like a roof panel, it attracts a premium.

In the same way I would buy a whole caravan chassis and break it for the bit I want and sell the rest as spares bringing a small profit. Anything left gets weighed for scrap so more return.

If you are looking for cheap hydraulic tipping gear get a cheap engine crane. It gives you a long 8 ton ram and pump, a lift arm and frame that forms part of the tipper chassis and a pair of stability outriggers with big nylon wheels at the end.

Or you can look at how vintage tipper lorries worked before hydraulics. You can make a good tipping mechanism with an old chain hoist. One with a worm drive is non reversing so it doesn't run away under load. Under £10 for something so over engineered for the job compared to an expensive modern equivelent.

It's sometimes worth being crafty.

 

[RogerM]

Chris - this may appear to be a flippant answer, but it isn't meant to be! Given that you have a 2 year landscaping job to do, why not buy the right trailer for the job, regardless of price within reason, then sell in 2 years time and get something which is suitable for the long term lighter use you intend. Given that a builders skip is about £245, and a midi-skip about £180 - you won't have to shift much earth before you're into cost saving.

 

[chris_d]

Thanks Roger,

I completely agree with you provided that I bought second hand, otherwise the two year depreciation on a new trailer is a considerably useful sum of money given my other expenses at the moment.

Here in lies the rub...

Cheers,
C

 

[Anonymous]

Chris,

watch out with what you can take to the tip (household recycling). I bought a small van thinking it would help with tip trips. Then I found out I need to book an appointment each time I want to go. Not much good when I tend to go on a whim. There is a trailer size limit as well. I've checked Gloucestershire, Worcestershire and Herefordshire and they all have pretty much the same rules.

Dave

 

[chris_d]

Hi Dave,

I didn't know Gloucestershire had started doing that but you are mistaken about Herefordshire/Worcestershire since they run a resident permit scheme as described at the following link: http://worcestershire.whub.org.uk/h...te-sites/wcc-waste-management-van-permits.htm. Having to constantly apply for permit vouchers is indeed inconvenient but thankfully you don't have to make an appointment.

HTH,
Chris

 

[Night Train]

Thanks Roger,

I completely agree with you provided that I bought second hand, otherwise the two year depreciation on a new trailer is a considerably useful sum of money given my other expenses at the moment.

Here in lies the rub...

Cheers,
C

If your company finances could cope could it not be written off in your company expenses? You could at least write off the depreciation.

My trailers were both expenses for my company and given how cheap they were I can write them off completely after a couple of years use. It saves me a bit of tax that way too.

 

[chris_d]

If your company...

Sadly I don't have the balls to run my own company and therefore repeatedly try to convince myself that working as an employee stuck behind a computer all day is a reasonable price to pay for financial stability :roll: . Oh how I'd love to be a self employed carpenter/arborist/property developer - I'll stop dreaming now.

That has depressed me further as I'm having to spend my holiday stuck indoors due to the torrential rain outside! To compound things further, the wife has shackled me to the computer in a bid to get the structural drawings for the extension finished - hence UKW and trailer design are wonderful distractions, she'll never know....

Cheers,
Chris

 

[Anonymous]

Chris,

sorry for the misleading info. The permit does look like a slightly easier way to deal with things. The appointment thing is a complete pain (which is what it was designed to be).

Dave

Hi Dave,

I didn't know Gloucestershire had started doing that but you are mistaken about Herefordshire/Worcestershire since they run a resident permit scheme as described at the following link: http://worcestershire.whub.org.uk/h...te-sites/wcc-waste-management-van-permits.htm. Having to constantly apply for permit vouchers is indeed inconvenient but thankfully you don't have to make an appointment.

HTH,
Chris

 

[cambournepete]

Sadly I don't have the balls to run my own company and therefore repeatedly try to convince myself that working as an employee stuck behind a computer all day is a reasonable price to pay for financial stability :roll: . Oh how I'd love to be a self employed carpenter/arborist/property developer - I'll stop dreaming now.

Chris - you been reading my mind ...?

 

[Night Train]

If your company...

Sadly I don't have the balls to run my own company and therefore repeatedly try to convince myself that working as an employee stuck behind a computer all day is a reasonable price to pay for financial stability :roll: . Oh how I'd love to be a self employed carpenter/arborist/property developer - I'll stop dreaming now.
Cheers,
Chris

Oh how I wish I was employed, sometimes.:wink:

I have spent all today looking for little bits of paper with faded print on to go into my accounts.
Got a reminder letter from the accountant saying he had until the end of the month to get my accounts done so he really needs my half of the bargain very soon.
Just perched on the arm of the sofa now as everywhere else is covered in accounts!

Time spent catching up is time lost from doing work but it is my own fault for not doing it sooner.

Being a Limited Company has benefits but also drawbacks as my accounts have to penny perfect and on time or the Inland Revenue will have me hung, drawn and quartered.