Card scrapers steel and what's best for you?

[bridger]

As a young man I had the acquaintance of a luthier who took an interest in my interest in woodworking. We spent a bit of time in his shop, him showing me tools and talking about processes. He went on a bit about scrapers, an important toolset in luthiere. He showed me his set of card scrapers. It looked like a drawer of bits of scrap sheet metal, cut in all sorts of odd shapes, because that is exactly what it was. He said, about any steel will work as long as it isn't too hard to roll a burr on. Cold rolled even works, though the edge won't last long. Saw steel is perfect, both in thickness and in hardness. Luthiere uses more curved scrapers than most furniture making and he stressed making scrapers as you go to match the shape at hand, and to keep a bit of saw steel ready for that purpose. In the intervening 30 years I have found that his advise was completely correct.

Evening gent,
I recently decided it's time to get some card scrapers, I purchased the set of 4 by veritas. I've hear good reviews about the clifton ones and LN are just all round good quality, all being diffrent steels ect and all that..
If one had to choose what would they pick? Not just the 3 brands I've mentioned but any manufacture of scraper (this does not include old saws cut down).
And what are the differences if any....

Thanks
TT

 

[Trafalgar]

I don't doubt for a moment that's true for scraping fine shapes.

For scraping more or less broad surfaces, rather than making the handheld equivalent of a moulding cutter, the L-N scrapers were absolutely abysmal. I thought it was me until I got a better chunk of steel. It wasn't me. I assume Sandvik scrapers were made from their saw plate which tells me their plate was much better than the plate L-N uses now, at least better for scrapers...

If the task is to form scraper steel into scratches and other odd shapes then something soft(er) is obviously an advantage for this aspect of the process. In fact, I would think it paramount.

 

[bridger]

I think softer is fine for one time use. For scrapers that need to last a while you'll want something like saw steel. Which is fine, since saw steel is cheap and readily available in the form of discarded saws. Even cheap disposable saws yield steel that is ideal for scrapers

I don't doubt for a moment that's true for scraping fine shapes.

For scraping more or less broad surfaces, rather than making the handheld equivalent of a moulding cutter, the L-N scrapers were absolutely abysmal. I thought it was me until I got a better chunk of steel. It wasn't me. I assume Sandvik scrapers were made from their saw plate which tells me their plate was much better than the plate L-N uses now, at least better for scrapers...

If the task is to form scraper steel into scratches and other odd shapes then something soft(er) is obviously an advantage for this aspect of the process. In fact, I would think it paramount.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

For those starting out, and collecting a basic toolkit, a discarded saw may not be that easily found, and saws are not the easiest things to cut up. Commercial scrapers are easily available from many sources, and most are not that expensive. You don't need a drawer full, just one or two will cover almost all eventualities for the relative beginner.

One commercial scraper and one burnisher will get you going. A small gouge will do as a burnisher, sometimes even a good-quality screwdriver shank. You can add whatever you find your work dictating later on.

 

[JimB]

I have some from Flinn which work fine. I picked up a no-name rectangular one at Leeds market when visiting nearly 40 years ago and still use it.

 

[Trafalgar]

I think softer is fine for one time use. For scrapers that need to last a while you'll want something like saw steel. Which is fine, since saw steel is cheap and readily available in the form of discarded saws. Even cheap disposable saws yield steel that is ideal for scrapers

I don't doubt for a moment that's true for scraping fine shapes.

For scraping more or less broad surfaces, rather than making the handheld equivalent of a moulding cutter, the L-N scrapers were absolutely abysmal. I thought it was me until I got a better chunk of steel. It wasn't me. I assume Sandvik scrapers were made from their saw plate which tells me their plate was much better than the plate L-N uses now, at least better for scrapers...

If the task is to form scraper steel into scratches and other odd shapes then something soft(er) is obviously an advantage for this aspect of the process. In fact, I would think it paramount.

At some point time enters into the equation -- find the right old saw, cut it up, etc. I see the Sandviks on EBay from time to time and they're around $10. I paid something around that for mine. Then there are Cliftons which are almost as good or at least used to be. If I needed a drawer full of them for instrument making it might make sense to go the old saw route. Otherwise, not so much. Given my love for the Sandviks I guess I'd need to find an old Sandvik saw to cut up but if I did find one my first instinct would be to use it as a saw.

I actually don't agree, at all, that any saw will work given my experience with Lie-Nielsen scrapers which are made from their saw plate. They may work in a strict sense, but not well by comparison. I'm usually fairly jaundiced when it comes to this tool brand vs. that tool brand. I can honestly say that I've never experienced something as tangibly different as the difference between a Sandvik scraper and others I've used. Happily, this is an easy itch to scratch where one's wallet is concerned.

 

[jimi43]

Sandvik saws are cheap as chips over in the UK so it's not really an issue for us.

Jimi

 

[bugbear]

It's probably worth pointing out that that just because a maker sells saws AND scrapers, it's not inevitable that the steel composition, thickness and/or heat treatment are the same for the two products.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Lie-Nielsen, at least, advertises that their scrapers are of the same stock as that used to make their saws. They make this statement overtly on their website. They say it's 'fine Swedish steel' but if this is true then fine Swedish steel must not be what it used to be.

I can certainly see where your statement could be true with regard to Clifton because I don't believe they made or make saws though I could be wrong about this.

The Sandvik scrapers might very well be from something other than saw plate, and this further bolsters the notion of just finding a Sandvik scraper and buying it.

Here's one right here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Scraper-Sandv ... 2ed745d08e

 

[bridger]

It's probably worth pointing out that that just because a maker sells saws AND scrapers, it's not inevitable that the steel composition, thickness and/or heat treatment are the same for the two products.

BugBear

well, true. it is kind of a common observation though that sawmakers generally offer card scrapers as a way to market their remaindered saw plate cutoffs.

I have definitely used a wide variety of steels in making scrapers, including those to be jigged, such as in a scratch stock. old kitchen knife blades, cut up circular saws, feeler gauges, paint scraper blades, floor scraper blades and yes, cutouts from old handsaws.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I would be very surprised if it is not exactly the same steel and heat treatment. The reason I say this is that by and large saw manufacturers don't do the heat treatment but start with a pre-treated spring steel something like cs95. Neither would it surprise me terribly if the Clifton scrapers were not made by them but a nearby saw manufacturer ? (Just speculation)

 

[Peter Sefton]

Well now that Clifton is owned by the the only UK saw maker this will definitely be the case. My personal preference is the Clifton scrapers and Burnisher, but Thomas Flinn have been supplying us with a range of different shaped more unusual shaped scrapers more suited to mouldings and profiled or restoration work.

 

[Trafalgar]

Highland Woodworking in Atlanta, Georgia sell Bahco and here's what they have to say about them.

I may get one to see if it's as good as the original.

Bahco 474 Card Scraper

"The Sandvik Scraper" is the original card scraper that's long been famous in woodworking circles. After Sandvik and Bahco merged in 1991, the Bahco 474 became the scraper that replaced the 475 Sandvik Scraper that's referenced in Tage Frid's Book 2: Shaping, Veneering and Finishing.

Bahco's hard Swedish cold-rolled, hardened and tempered chrome-nickel steel takes a fine burr and holds it much longer than ordinary card scrapers. Machined surfaces and edges come ready for sharpening and burnishing.

A well-sharpened scraper can cut your finishing time in half. Card scrapers are ideal for finishing, removing glue squeeze-out, leveling across joints and eliminating tearout. The Bahco 474's .032" thickness is moderately stiff, the perfect scraper for finishing flat surfaces.

Comes with a plastic protective sleeve to protect sharpened edges. Scraper dimensions are 2-7/16" x 5-7/8" x .032".


Link: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/bahc ... raper.aspx

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I have scrapers by Flinn, Bacho and Veritas. Whilst I use them all and would not be unhappy if I could only have one brand, my slight preference would be Bacho ones. I also have a Flinn burnisher, which is fine for most scrapers, but would like it to be a bit harder TBH. The Veritas scrapers are very hard and mark the burnisher, which will not raise a burr easily on them. You do really need a super hard burnisher for them, carbide perhaps.

Mike

 

[MIGNAL]

Bahco. That's the one I recently bought, although I called it a Sandvik. Nothing truly special about it, unless you've been using steel that has more in common with aluminium. Then again perhaps I've been lucky and my 6 or 7 scrapers (bought and homemade) just happen to be good. Certainly the one with edge longevity is the one I made from a HSS Plane blade but that's a slightly different scraper although it accomplishes the same task.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Highland Woodworking in Atlanta, Georgia sell Bahco and here's what they have to say about them.

I may get one to see if it's as good as the original.




Link: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/bahc ... raper.aspx

Charlie,

I got the Bahco's from Highland maybe a year or two ago, and they're nothing special. I tried the LN sometime ago and my opinion about matters little, since I said I tried and mean I didn't find it to my liking to use again.

My go to scraper is my first scraper, and today has no name remaining on it (may never have had a name on it!). Got it maybe 15 years ago, along with a Crown burnisher (real piece of rubbish). But the card has been a true friend since.

When tangling with a card scraper, there are real advantages to make sure your burnishing tool is significantly harder and mirror polished. Makes the tool a joy to use.

Have any here tried the 1/4" odd shaped scraper tool, distributed in the states by Stewart McDonald (can't remember the maker's name)? I have one, works well enough, but it doesn't seem to be anything I reach for when I scrape.

 

[MIGNAL]

It's called the Carruth scraper, after the guy who came up with it. Actually he was only making a version of a 17 th century scraper. Thick scrapers were very common. They work fine and it's why I made a HSS version from a plane blade. Obviously they don't suffer from the heat problems that much thinner scrapers do. Being made of much harder steel they last longer too.
Try using less pressure with the burnisher. You shouldn't need much pressure if the edge is perfectly square and sharp. Using too much pressure will turn a bigger burr but it also has a tendency to mark the burnisher much more readily.

 

[bugbear]

It's called the Carruth scraper, after the guy who came up with it. Actually he was only making a version of a 17 th century scraper. Thick scrapers were very common. They work fine and it's why I made a HSS version from a plane blade. Obviously they don't suffer from the heat problems that much thinner scrapers do. Being made of much harder steel they last longer too.
Try using less pressure with the burnisher. You shouldn't need much pressure if the edge is perfectly square and sharp. Using too much pressure will turn a bigger burr but it also has a tendency to mark the burnisher much more readily.

Big burrs are great for removing varnish, but not needed for hardwood finishing. My biggest revalation with scrapers was when I used much less pressure on the burnisher.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Highland Woodworking in Atlanta, Georgia sell Bahco and here's what they have to say about them.

I may get one to see if it's as good as the original.




Link: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/bahc ... raper.aspx

Charlie,

I got the Bahco's from Highland maybe a year or two ago, and they're nothing special. I tried the LN sometime ago and my opinion about matters little, since I said I tried and mean I didn't find it to my liking to use again.

My go to scraper is my first scraper, and today has no name remaining on it (may never have had a name on it!). Got it maybe 15 years ago, along with a Crown burnisher (real piece of rubbish). But the card has been a true friend since.

When tangling with a card scraper, there are real advantages to make sure your burnishing tool is significantly harder and mirror polished. Makes the tool a joy to use.

Have any here tried the 1/4" odd shaped scraper tool, distributed in the states by Stewart McDonald (can't remember the maker's name)? I have one, works well enough, but it doesn't seem to be anything I reach for when I scrape.

Thanks for the dope on the Bahco, saved me the letdown. I'm good on burnishers -- I have the Clifton/Clico unit and love it. I haven't tried the Stewart-McDonald tool but will take a look.

 

[Peter Sefton]

My favourite is my Clifton burnisher, Pax do also make a Diamond coated burnisher for harder scrapers but I have never used that one.