Can you identify this tenon saw

[finnberg]

Hello
I recently bought a tenon saw from the UK, mistakenly believing that the saw was a E.C. Atkins saw. It turns out the only Atkins components are the saw nuts. The handle has three holes whereas the saw plate has four round holes plus an additional rectangular hole.

The saw does look British to me, but the etch is gone and the brass back is unmarked and tapered on the low side. The handle design also strikes me as slightly more British than American, although I could be wrong.

Another question about this saw, which I am hoping someone could explain is if the saw was originally fitted with another handle, then why am I not seeing two handle shapes on the saw plate. I have fitted lone handles to lone and unmatching saw plates several times, and very seldom do two out of three holes in a saw plate match another handle made for another saw.

As I am not allowed to post any links in this forum a search on the words flickr and finnberg68 will show up a set of images near the top of the page.

Greetings from Finland,

Kim

 

[TobyC]

No clue! Not very old though, very flat sided handle. I guess the square hole is so the blade can move relative to the spine?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'd agree with Toby that it's probably not an oldie - the handle shape looks quite 1940s/1950s/1960s. The saw screw through the back is very untypical of British practice, though.

Maybe it's a genuine, late E.C.Atkins?

 

[finnberg]

TobyC, Cheshirechappie,
Many thanks to both of you. I agree with the handle being a later design, but although Atkins did make an eight inch dovetail saw with three nuts (as opposed to for example Disston who use only two), where the top nut had no other place to go on a small handle than through the spine, popular belief is that Atkins didn't place the nut through the spine. Also a brass back is very untypical for Atkins.

The medallion would also would indicate an earlier Atkins design. But of course the nuts could have been recycled.

The flat hole is not in use. The top nut goes through the upper round hole, which locks the spine and the saw plate. But could this hole have been made for the sake of easier removal of the spine?

Cheers, Kim

 

[bugbear]

To play Sherlock, if we're assuming the handle and nuts are replacements, we can't use them to identify the plate..

BugBear

 

[finnberg]

Agreed. But if the handle can be identified it could be traced to a maker and compared to a saw of that maker, which would tell us if the plate is a replacement. I know I'm asking a lot, but it bugs me that I don't know who made this saw and there are so many handles around that despite browsing through thousands of images, my best hope is that someone would recognize the handle. Maybe I am doomed.

 

[MIGNAL]

If you do a google image search for 'Atkins saw' you should come across a seemingly much older Atkins brass backed saw, with the saw nut going through the spline. Quite an unusual feature. Or post on one of the US woodworking forums.

 

[finnberg]

Hi Mignal
I believe what ypiu are seeing is a "Atkin" saw, i.e. a Atkin & Son of Sheffield, which unfortunately is another maker. The Atkins I thought I bought could have been made in the US. The US trail has already been fruitlessly explored. People there seem to believe that this saw is put together by parts, which I don't object to. Just trying to find out who made what.

 

[whiskywill]

Try on here. http://www.backsaw.net/

They are very helpful.

 

[finnberg]

Many thanks, Whiskywill. Will do.

 

[Jacob]

..... The Atkins I thought I bought could have been made in the US. ......

It says "Indianapolis" on the badge, so there's a clue!

People there seem to believe that this saw is put together by parts, which I don't object to. Just trying to find out who made what.

Aren't they nearly all made with bits from various sources? Blades from a steel works, handles etc from the "maker" with his own brand on it, etc. I'd guess the odd holes are due to it being old stock with a new design of handle - no subtle design details involved. Or multiple holes to allow for different handle designs on the same plate.

PS there's dozens of them here http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/tenon/Recent
Some of them are tagged "UK back saw" but it doesn't mean they are British, it's just an internet tag added. Or could they have been made in UK for export? You can put what you like on a medallion!

 

[finnberg]

Hi Jacob
I know it says Indianapolis on the medallion. That's why I bought it. I like the Atkins saws. But the nuts are probably not from an Atkins saw because no source would accept that Atkins would have made a saw like this. I was silly enough to buy before I thought. Had I done my research first I might have decided otherwise.
The image link you refer to shows mostly images of saws that I have posted on Flickr. I know these saws and they are identified. Some of the images shown are pictured of my unidentified saw.

 

[Jacob]

I can't see any reason why it should not be an Atkins saw - it's what it says on the label. Surely nobody would bother to fake it. More likely that your sources don't cover every variety of every item.

 

[finnberg]

That is also a notion that has crossed my mind. But I agree with others that the handle doesn't look right. The brass back is also unseen on a Atkins saw, which is why I was hoping someone in the UK would recognize this saw. The US makers almost never made backsaws with brass backs unless they were exported to the UK.

 

[finnberg]

At last. I now have two sources telling me that my saw is a Atkins tenon saw. Michael Merlo, who sells saws on youknowwhere tells me he owns a similar one. And just recently an Englishman called John told me he owns another one. John also had an interesting bit of information. He told me the brass back is chamfered onto the saw plate, and after inspecting my own saw, it would certainly seem that way. This would also explain why the front portion of the back hadn't moved one bit even though the saw had clearly been banged about. The backs of our saws are identical, measuring 1 inch deep and 7/16 " thick.

Pictures here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/finnberg68 ... 346729044/