Calling all owners of Lie-Nielsen Scraping Planes 212 112 85

[bacchanal]

Hello all,

I was given a 212 Scraping plane from a very kind family member for Christmas. I must be doing something wrong however, as the only shavings I am currently getting are either so rough, they are like a blunt plane iron would give you (complete with dreaded tearout), or just dust, like a blunt cabinet scraper would give you.

To run through what I have done; I have set it at 45 degrees in my honing guide, so the bevel is completely flat to the stone. Then honed it on a 1,000 waterstone, and then a 8,000 waterstone (but without slightly raising the angle for the 8,000, as I would for a normal plane iron). Then I lapped the back of the iron on the 8,000 stone, to roll off the wire edge. Should one hone it at a higher angle to 45 degrees on the 1,000 stone , and even higher still on the 8,000?

I then set it in the Plane, which I have sat on a piece of float glass. I have tried setting it both completely flat, and with a piece of paper underneath the tongue of the plane. I am careful not to overtighten the thumbscrew on the bronze cap.

I am then trying to use it as one would with a normal plane iron, not pressing too hard; just with a nice even smooth pressure all along. the piece of wood.

Please could somebody with experience of this tool, also explain to me, if one moves the frog so the blade is more vertical (towards 90 degrees from flat), will that make the blade cut more, or less? And vice-versa, if I move the frog backwards, so it is more towards 70 degrees from flat, what effect does that have on the cutting action of the blade?

Any help would be very kind. Thanks.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

There are Stanley versions of these planes that set up in the same way.

As a general rule, the blades benefit from a hook, which acts as a cutter.

To set it up, sharpen the blade the way you like, and then try it freehand. Take note of the angle at which the blade creates shavings. Now set up your scraper plane to replicate this angle. Fine tune it once in the plane.

For reference, I have a couple of scraper planes, but have not used them in years, prefering hand held cabinet scrapers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Racers]

I sharpen and leave the hook it works for me on my scraper plane, but a hook free blade works as well, what wood are you plaining?

Pete

 

[shed9]

Have you read the Lie Nielsen blurb; https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/sma ... ing-planes

They suggest no burr in the initial stages to get used to it (assuming you have no prior habits I would expect). The topic of LN scrapers comes up a fair bit on the US sites and the general consensus is usually to follow LN advice. I would recommend Thomas Lie Nielsen's book on sharpening, fairly well thought out book and elaborates on the scraper aspect.

 

[Beau]

I sharpen mine as per the instructions for the stanley. Sharpen to 45 degrees and go to fine grits as if sharpening any other blade making sure you have removed all the previous burr. Then turn the burr at 15 degrees with an appropriate tool (the lie-nielson steel is much harder than the Stanley so making do with a screwdriver may well not work). I also tilt the blade a long way forwards again so much like a stanley scraper.

Good luck as they are fabulous tools IME and has massively cut down on the sanding I have to do.

 

[matthewwh]

Deneb has done a couple of videos on the subject...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpgnS_zgE6Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHcgZiEOWPU

It amounts to just a longer more detailed version of Derek's suggestion above, but if that doesn't get you making shavings then maybe something in the videos will help.

 

[bacchanal]

Thank you all for such helpful and quick replies.
Just one query; when sharpening, would one hone a secondary bevel (at a slightly higher angle, say 48 degrees) onto it with the finest stone, as you would when sharpening a plane blade? And then roll off the burr on the back, just like a plane blade?
Thanks

 

[matthewwh]

I tend to give mine a swipe with a burnisher in the same spot to create the slight hook. The burnishing also smooths the surface of the metal, so there's limited benefit to honing the single bevel beyond the 'misted' finish stage.

Having said that, we went with the original spec of a thin scraper blade in carbon steel at RC59 for the QS version, I think the LN may be thicker, slightly harder and made from A2.

 

[Racers]

My blade is to hard to form a hook, luckily it’s not needed to scrape.

Pete

 

[Beau]

Thank you all for such helpful and quick replies.
Just one query; when sharpening, would one hone a secondary bevel (at a slightly higher angle, say 48 degrees) onto it with the finest stone, as you would when sharpening a plane blade? And then roll off the burr on the back, just like a plane blade?
Thanks

One of the few times I use a guide and I do lift it just a touch higher than 45 degrees. I polish off any burr on a waterstone

 

[David C]

There are a number of things that must be right, for these planes to work well.

I grind at 35 to 40 degrees, get wire edge at 43 and polish at 45. (Remove wire edge with ruler trick).

The burnisher must be hard and well polished. It is necessary to have good control of the burnishing angle. Start very gently at 45 degrees and finish at 75 degrees. Several very gentle strokes to get there. It helps to place the blade on a piece of scrap wood with a 75 degree edge. This prevents turning the hook too far.

The next important detail is the angle of the blade in the plane. Use the same angle as the Stanley 80, i.e.20 degrees forward.
Small changes to this may be used to make small adjustments to shaving thickness.

Shaving thickness should be fine.

I describe these details in my DVD "Five Topics" or my second book.
best wishes
David Charlesworth

 

[thetyreman]

I had the no85 by lie neilsen, it worked far better with a hook on the edge, try it and see

 

[D_W]

My blade is to hard to form a hook, luckily it’s not needed to scrape.

Pete

Which brand of blade?

 

[Racers]

My blade is to hard to form a hook, luckily it’s not needed to scrape.

Pete

Which brand of blade?

Home made O1 steel.

Pete

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

My blade is to hard to form a hook, luckily it’s not needed to scrape.

Pete

Which brand of blade?

Home made O1 steel.

Pete

What type of burnisher?

Do you bevel the blade?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

There are a number of things that must be right, for these planes to work well.

I grind at 35 to 40 degrees, get wire edge at 43 and polish at 45. (Remove wire edge with ruler trick).

The burnisher must be hard and well polished. It is necessary to have good control of the burnishing angle. Start very gently at 45 degrees and finish at 75 degrees. Several very gentle strokes to get there. It helps to place the blade on a piece of scrap wood with a 75 degree edge. This prevents turning the hook too far.

The next important detail is the angle of the blade in the plane. Use the same angle as the Stanley 80, i.e.20 degrees forward.
Small changes to this may be used to make small adjustments to shaving thickness.

Shaving thickness should be fine.

I describe these details in my DVD "Five Topics" or my second book.
best wishes
David Charlesworth

I would like to add emphasis to David's suggestions. I had a scraper plane (like many), no longer did, but went through the period of ???? with it (you know, what you guys are talking about getting spotty results), followed David's method exactly from viewing his DVD and it turned my two scraping planes into instant performers.

If you prefer to use the scraping planes without a burr, you're cheating yourself out of 3/4ths of the tool's capability. David's method turns the scrapers into a great finishing tool that:
* isn't limited just to super fine cuts
* doesn't have a beat up edge or burr that marks up the wood leaving lines behind.

In my opinion, worth the purchase of the DVD if you're having trouble, especially if you've bought expensive scraping planes with relatively hard irons. To quote charlie, having several hundred dollars worth of suboptimally set scrapers and not buying material to help set them up is allowing a nickel to hold up a dime.

Apologies for not reading through the rest of the posts entirely, but a side comment - if the hard irons in the modern scraping planes cause your burnisher problems (or the burnisher tears them up), find one that's harder or buy drill rod and heat and quench it, and then buff it. The LN iron is about as close to scraper perfection as you can get - it holds a very clean sharp burr for a long time.

And - just for cheshirechappie - the reason I no longer have those planes is because the double iron eliminated them (I am not usually working this kind of wood by machine, so I prefer something that removes more material with less effort). I did keep the LN 212 for a little while (a supremely wonderful little scraper plane that is more practical than the larger planes) to scrape japanese plane soles, but eventually stopped using those, so out the door it went.

 

[D_W]

My blade is to hard to form a hook, luckily it’s not needed to scrape.

Pete

Which brand of blade?

Home made O1 steel.

Pete

Hi Pete, low-mid 50s hardness is where i find a blade will turn a burr, but above that, the edge has lost enough toughness that they don't want to. If your O1 can easily (relatively) be filed with a good file (which high saw temper steel allows), you should be able to roll a nice tidy burr. In that case, the burnisher is probably the problem.

If a file skates or only just grabs on it, it's too hard for a burr and you may want to treat yourself to something else for the scraper.

 

[Racers]

Why? I am quite happy with the way it works.
I get good shavings and finish with my blade wit no burr or the one left from sharpening.
Not to shabby box wood shavings.

Scraper V Plane by Racers, on Flickr

Pete

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

This thread was opened on a couple of forums besides this one. I responded on Sawmill Creek in regard to the difference in performance of scraper blades. The edge off a scraper blade without a hook will scrape but not cut. This leaves a coarser surface. The blade with a hook creates a cutting edge akin to a plane with a high angled bed. Further, the blade sans hook will dull rapidly, while the hooked edge will keep cutting.

I would only use a scraper plane with a hook. This is what a Stanley #112 can do with Tasmanian Oak ..

It is many years since I felt the need to use a scraper plane. First planes with high cutting angles, and then planes with double irons performed better. I do use cabinet scrapers a good deal, and these are always used with a hook.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

If you roll a burr, you can get a plane-like surface (on something on the harder side) and shavings that look like plane shavings - full width, perhaps two or three thousandths.

the higher-hardness saw temper blades can hold a burr for a long time, and as David said in his discussion of adjusting depth, it means that as the burr stops cutting, tilt the iron forward a bit, cut some more, and repeat a few times.