Buying veneer backing paper??

[sihollies]

Hi
Could anyone please shed any light on where I could possibly buy veneer backing paper/sheet. I have trawled the internet, but came up with nothing.
I am looking at making sheets of parquetry that I intend to stick to some form of backing paper, to enable me to lay medium sized sheets of parquetry to a small table top.
Alternatively, any suggestions of a suitable, widely available backing would also be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance

Simon

 

[Peter Sefton]

I understand Crispins may stock it but if they don't they will know who does.
http://www.capitalcrispin.com
Cheers Peter

 

[sihollies]

Thanks very much for the reply Peter.
Couldn't see anything regarding backing paper on the website, but will contact them , and will post my findings, should anyone on the forum ever need the product.

Thanks again

Simon

 

[Chrispy]

Surely the paper is just a tempary holder to aid the fixing to the ground work and is removed after final fixing in which case would brown paper of some kind do, as long as it is reasonably strong and will come free with wetting afterwards thats all it needs to do?

 

[sihollies]

Thanks Chrispy.
I have never used backing paper and have indeed considered brown wrapping paper, but assumed the wax content in most brown papers would not allow a sound adhesion.
Regarding the gluing of the backed parquetry sheet: I was under the assumption that one glues the veneers to the paper and then you glue the backing paper to the piece of furniture. So in effect, the paper is permanently between the timber base and the veneer.??
Similar to backed flexible veneers.
Perhaps I am wrong in my thoughts, so any input/clarification would be appreciated

Thanks again

Simon

 

[Chrispy]

The weakness with paper that I would be concerned with is that it splits, IE one side sticks to the veneer and the other to the ground work but the paper will separate down the center if either whetted or peeled.
My preference would be to use the paper as a temporary carrier and remove it at the end.

 

[sihollies]

Thanks for your input Chrispy.
I can completely see where you are coming from, but cant really work out how I could use paper as a ' temporary carrier ' without leaving a glue residue on the veneers once I have ahered the sheet to the ground work.
What adhesive could I use to easily remove the paper after I have glued it to the table top?
Sorry if I am appearing dumb, but this technique is new to me.
When I have made sheets of parquetry in the past, I have used several layers of masking tape to secure the various stages of construction. Unfortunately when using this technique I have found that you need to glue the sheet to the ground work soon after construction, as the adhesive on the masking tape degrades and leaves a residue which is a nightmare to remove prior to finishing

regards

Simon

 

[Chrispy]

Well traditionally it would be done with animal glue, but with care thinned down pva should be OK unless you have a very sensitive finish to apply.
Just wash/wipe/rub the paper off the remaining glue that is left will be over the whole surface and will just act as a grain filler.

 

[sihollies]

Thanks again Chrispy
I am sure it is going to come down to trial and experience using your suggested technique, and will certainly have a few trial attempts
Would you say that standard brown parcel paper would be adequate, and what would be your recommended dilution rate of the PVA.
Having glued the veneer to the ground work, would I be correct in saying that perhaps I should dampen the paper backing with a sponge and peel as much off as possible, then perhaps give it a light sanding if possible?
Just for reference: Crispins replied to my Email stating'" I regret we do not stock nor have any idea at all as to where you might find."

Thanks for your time
Simon

 

[Chrispy]

Reading your earlier comment re using masking tape maybe you should try "Veneer tape" instead, it's a very thin gummed white paper tape used for holding joints together prior to laying the veneer, which as you suggest will then come away at the end with the aid of a damp cloth.

Any paper would work depends how strong it needs to be for your application even printer paper or clean newsprint would work, an old brown envelope etc.

 

[sihollies]

Cheers,
I will let you know how I get on.

Regards
Simon

 

[Chrispy]

Photo of finished work required please!

 

[johnwc812]

Hi Simon
My father (who is now 101) worked for HMV in 1960 veneering radiograms.
They always used gummed brown paper tape to join matched quarter veneers, and cross-banding etc.
The tape is wetted and taped (on the face side) across both ends of the join
and then along the join. As the tape dried it shrunk slightly and pulled the joint tight.
The tape was left on while the veneer is glued on (Scotch glue),
then damped and scraped off when set, before the veneer surface was sanded.
This type of tape can still be bought in art shops.
Cheers John

 

[marcus]

Agree gummed paper is the best for joining veneers in traditional work, and would be superb for the application in question if it was available in big sheets. Trouble it it isn't. I spent long enough looking anyway. If someone could prove me wrong I would be very happy!

 

[Peter Sefton]

Simon
There used to be a veneer backing paper called Yorkite available in brown for backing curl veneers and white for backing Sycamore and light veneers to reduce telegraphing, If you are still looking I would suggest you contact Crispin’s. I have never used it but we joint veneers using various techniques and sell the products we use, these include Tesa Veneer tape a strong tape in 19mm, used to hold veneer pieces together before entering the press. It doesn't leave watermarks in the veneer and is best removed with heat, either from the hot press or with locally applied heat if a cold press is used, we re-soften it with a hair dryer.
The tradition paper tapes we have are either perforated or solid paper, the perforated tape is good if the veneered panel is to be drum sanded to remove the tape, the more perforations the less clogging of the abrasive belts. The solid tapes are good for laying up panels of veneer and are stronger than the perforated type if you need to pull the joint up. Damp the tape by dragging it over a wet make up sponge or similar, remove after veneering by damping and leaving a few minutes before removing with a stainless steel scraper or rule to avoid black staining.
The longer you leave any tape on the surface of the veneer the more chance of discoloration, the other method we use is to glue the veneer edge to edge with PVA to build up the parquetry panel after the PVA has cured 20 minutes move onto the next piece and remove all tape within the hour if required.
Cheers Peter

 

[sihollies]

Thanks for all the input
I have been producing parquetry for some time now, but only in small sheets, but now want to make larger ones.
I like the idea, and can see the logic behind johnwc812's suggestion, and think larger sheets can be made up using multiple strips of gummed paper.
My only concern is, over what time span can the gummed paper be applied before it starts to discolour the veneers.
I have also looked into using Tesa tape as requested by Peter, so will probably give that a go too.
I only do this as a hobby, and have made some ok ish boxes etc, but would like to make some larger objects, so all the information that I can glean is truly appreciated. so thank you all.
I think I am going to be experimenting for the next few months!!

Thanks again
Simon

 

[marcus]

I've never experienced gummed tape discolouring the wood, but max I have ever left it on is probably only a week so can't say beyond that. I can't see why it would change the colour, can anyone explain?! If you're not in too much of a hurry you could put a piece of tape on your veneer and take it after a week or two to see what's happened

I can see how the rest of the wood might change a bit because it is exposed to air and light, while the part covered by the tape wouldn't be. But usually the effect would be very slight, and could be sanded out easily enough — unless it was something like American cherry or purple heart where the colour change is fairly quick and dramatic, which I imagine could cause a bit of bother, though it would probably equalise in the end.

 

[sihollies]

Thanks again for all your advice.
I contacted Crispins and they informed me that they had no access to a paper that could back veneer, or the whereabouts as to where I could buy such a product.
I bought a couple of different gummed brown paper tape, but the adhesive wasnt strong enough to hold the veneers secure when peeling the masking tape off. ( I use masking tape to build/construct the parquetry sheet. )
I have however made a A3ish size press/clamp using 18mm MDF with several bolts around the edge This allows me to clamp a pre made parquetry sheet coated with a 1:4 PVA mix to a piece of brown parcel/wrapping paper.
I have had success on some small sheets, in that after I have glued the backed parquetry sheet to the ground work, I just dampened the brown paper with a sponge and it just peeled off.
However on larger sheets, I have found that the PVA doesn't dry, I assume, due to the lack of oxygen that is within th press/clamp.
Could you please advise of a adhesive that I could dilute that doesnt need oxygen to go off, that will alllow me to dampen it after setting to remove the backing paper.

Many thanks

Simon

 

[marcus]

You could try starch paste glue perhaps (made from flour, very easy, recipes online). Or a very thin hide glue might work.

 

[custard]

Tesa tape isn't cheap but it's worth every penny (you can buy it from Peter Sefton's web site at a good price). If you apply it in a zig zag overlapping fashion when edge jointing veneer leaves you can peal it off in one stroke as each piece lifts the next piece.

I once tried to economise and used a regular Sellotape, only to find it was too thick and the outline telegraphed through the veneer after being in the press, after that I only use Tesa!