Built in storage units

[moon]

Hey fellas Its been a long while since i have posted here, unfortunately i cant get into my old account, but none the less i am back and i have a new project.

For a little background info i am a keen amateur woodworker, my largest project to date was a couple years ago when many of you helped me with building some storage units out of birch ply. I don't know if he is still around but in particular jasonb was a massive help going above and beyond the call of duty, in helping me design my units and answering my millions of questions And im hoping i will be lucky enough to get some similiar help this time around.

I have got the opportunity to build some more storage units, i learnt a lot last time around, but i had already started the project last time so was restricted in some ways to make the most of all the advice. Hopefully by taking advice this time before i have started i can improve from my last storage units, as i have a blank canvas as it were.

Last time i built storage units out of birch ply, spanning the whole length the wall, with scribed pieces at each end and at the top, and using stanley sliding doors across the whole length.

This project is in the main bedroom, where i plan to build storage units spanning the whole length of one wall, and with scribed pieces at each end between the walls/ceiling and storage units. I plan to have full length wardrobe doors on the front of the units.

I have lots of questions so please bare with me, i remember from last time most of you like to have the questions numbered as you found it easier to reply, so i shall use that formula once again.




1. Last time i used birch ply, but other materials were suggested although it was too late for me to use them at that point. Am i right in thinking that MDF, MFC, veneered ply and conti board are still the main contenders? Which material is the best to use? (if it helps at present i think i will paint these units, although i am happy to take advice on that subject?)

2. Assuming i use a carcass construction, do i need to fix a face frame?

3. Are hidden hinges like you would in kitchen units the best hinges to use for the doors?

4. Does the width of each unit affect which hinge i should use? For example can i use the above mentioned hinges, if the unit is 400mm wide, 500mm wide, or 600mm wide? I have read that using these hinges on material less than 18mm wide makes fitting the doors awkward, but does it have the same effect if the width of the units varies?

5. Is it a good idea to make my own doors? I really like the look of some the doors i have seen made from MDF, but is that a good idea? It certainly would help to be able to make my own doors as i dont think universal measurements will fit (especially as each unit will vary slightly in width)

6. Is it more cost effective to make your own doors, or to buy some in?

7. Should i build a base frame for the all the units, and then fix the carcasses to the frame? e.g a timber frame made from 4x4 (or similar) and then fix each carcass on top of the base frame?

8. Im i right that making carcass frames out of a sheet material, is better than making a timber frame out of 2x2 or something similar? Is there much difference in strength? the quality of the finish? and the price?

There are probably loads of other questions i have forgotten to ask but this post is long enough already i would of thought, so thanks if you have managed to get this far.

Btw i do plan to post pics etc so hopefully this thread will prove as a kind of history of my project.

Hope you can help.
moon

 

[jasonB]

Quick reply before going to work

1. MR (mosistuer resistant) MDF for painted doors, Carcase in MFC for ease
2. Depends on look
3. Yes
4. Only affects number needed due to weight
5. Depends on look, ability, tools available, better for custom sizes
6. same as above and how much time you want to spend vs money
7. Base frame but 4x4 is too much, 38x63 0r 38x88 CLS will do
8. Sheet for me.

J

 

[moon]

Cheers mate, i must say im pleased to see you still use the forums, i just hope you are as patient with me this time around :lol: (and everyone else for that matter)

As usual your answers have thrown up more questions for me, but once again i will number them for you for ease of answering them. Btw i still have all the plans and instructions you gave me from last time, so i should only have to tweak them to suit MFC

1. I'm i right that i should use 18mm MFC? (i used 18mm birch ply last time)
2. Should i use 18mm for the backs as well? Or what would be best?
3. Is the fixing and construction method as it was for the birch ply? (last time it was make a box carcass, fixed through the edges, using biscuits as guides, then screwed)
3. Can i use the same fixings as i did for the birch ply? You recommended carcass screws, with pilot holes etc and then smaller fixings to fix the units together.
4. What is the best method to fix the carcasses to the base frame?
5. For fixing the shelves, last time i used battens to hold the shelves in place (as the units were already in place), but should i fix the shelves in place before i fit the units? and screw the sides and back of the units, directly into the shelves?


And just to clarify a few things from my first batch of questions

With regards to a face frame, last time you suggested hard wood trims, to cover the edges of the ply.

6. What is the best way to go about it with MFC, is a face frame needed? Or would it be better to to use iron on edges or something similar?


With regards to making the doors, im not sure if i have the tools required if im really honest (as i don't have a table saw or band saw etc). I will be getting all the boards cut to size by the merchants, last time there was only a 1mm tolerance which tbh worked out fine, im not sure if it will be ok for doors though. My problem is i wont be using the universal 600mm wide doors.

7. What would you suggest is the way to go here? If not making them myself, can you suggest anywhere to source doors from?

Sorry for so many questions again but i plan to start next week so want to get all the details in place, i wish i could say they will be my last but i fear that would be a lie :lol:

All advice is very much appreciated

Cheers
moon

 

[jasonB]

1. 18mm will be your best bet for the carcases, though you could possibly get away with 18mm "Conti" board but that will limit your choice of finish.

2. Most of the MFC makers also do an 8mm board which will do for the backs, cut it to the overall size of carcase and screw it to the back at about 200mm centres with 3.5x30 screws. If using 18mm backs then either cut teh same and use carcase screws or cut so they slip inside the carcase and screw through the sides into the edge of the backs, carcase screws again

3.Yes

4. A couple of 3.5mm screws down through the bottom of the carcase usually don't show too much.

5. I tend to have one or two fixed shelves which stop the carcase spreading, fix these as you would the top & bottom. For other shelves drill 5mm holes and use shelf studs which allows adjustability.

6. Really depends on design, painted MDF or hardwood particularly if having inset doors. Iron on edgeing if the doors will lay on eg cover the carcase front.

7. Post a photo from somewhere of the type of door you want that way I can see whats wanted and advise to suit

J

 

[moon]

Thanks once again mate, really helpful as usual, and as usual i have move questions lol

1. In my last post i notice in my questions i numbered two questions as number 3 #-o was your response to both of them?

2. I love the adjustable shelf's idea, i know this is probably a really stupid question but am i right that i should drill 5mm holes and fix shelf studs all the way down the carcass for easy adjustment as it were? Or do you use the right amount of studs for the shelf's and move them as required?

With regards to the face frame question, forgive me but i had assumed i would have to have the doors covering the carcass much like a flat pack kitchen unit due to the hinges, but i must admit im very much a novice when it comes to hinges.

3. Is this the best way to go? Which would be the more managable way, the sort of most straight forward as it were?
Im more than happy to take advice on which method you prefer.

4. With regards to the doors, i had planned to do some 'shaker' doors, i think they are called? I remember you showing me some you had made that i really liked the look of, i think there were a veneered MDF, with a kind of over lay hardwood face frame (styles etc). Sorry if that isnt a very good explanation, I will try and find a pic and post them.

I would really like to have a crack at making the doors myself, especially as i want them custom lengths, but im not sure though if that be pushing it a bit? so i am very open to suggestions to what you think is best wkth regards to doors.

cheers
moon

 

[moon]

Now this isnt exactly the same as what you showed me, but it is simiar. I hadnt decided exactly on the finish yet.

Im not very good with these computers, so you might have to bare with me with these links.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=shaker ... 9,r:4,s:53

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=shaker ... ,r:13,s:25

 

[jasonB]

1. Yes and Yes

2. Its usual to just have studs for the actual shelves and leave the remaining holes "open" if you want to move a shelf move the studs as well

3. Its a lot easier to have the doors covering the front of the carcases. Insetting them into faceframes gives a more traditional look

4. For painted I don't use that method much but its easy to do with limited tools. Make the doors from 12 or 15mm MRMDF and then get a load of strips cut from 6mm board to suit the size of styles & rails you want. You can then just glue and pin the strips to the door. Two pack filler will take care of any slight gaps before painting.

J

 

[moon]

Thanks once again mate, your continued help is really appreciated

I will have the doors covering the carcass, maybe i will have a crack one day at insetting when my skills and confidence have improved.

With regards to the doors, im not 100% decided on the finish yet although i am strongly leaning towards having them painted. Finishing the the birch ply and hardwood trims last time took a lot of time and work, also i think painting might be more forgiving with regards to finish (gaps etc) as these would be my first doors i have made. Is this method of making doors prone to warping etc though, and if so i might be better off trying to get them in, i think im just a bit worried about getting them right lol

1. Could there be an issue with the doors warping?
2. Although its not the driving factor will it be cheaper to make or buy them in?
3. Something i forgot to ask is, whats the best method of doorstop for the double wardrobe doors? Do you just build a carcass for each door as it were? Or do you have some kind of middle frame piece? And if so whats the best method of fixing the middle piece?

Thanks for all your help so far, but im now about to throw you a curve ball :lol:
As this time around i feel im improving my skills so to speak, i thought i would go for a more ambitious design. I was thinking of having a wardrobe each side of the bed and cupboards 'bridging' the gap. Sorry if this isnt a very good explanation, i will try and find a picture to explain better. But i have a couple of questions about the construction.

4. Do you do the cupboards in one long carcass resting on top of the wardrobes, with dividers for each cupboard? A kind of Stonehenge construction, if that makes sense to you.
Or is it like top kitchen cabinets? Each unit hung with a bracket in each top corner of the unit, and then each unit screwed together?

5. If the cupboards are hung on brackets does that change the construction of each cupboard? Sort of have the back stepped forward and housed within the unit, much like a kitchen cabinet?

6. The wall the top cupboards would be fixed to is plasterboard bonded directly to the masonary underneath, would this still be secure enough to hold the cupboards? With the plugs pushed through the plasterboard into the brickwork?

Sorry for so many questions again, but i don't think i can up with many more so you should be safe soon :lol:

moon

 

[moon]

Sorry took me a while to find a picture of what i meant, this picture is not what i am going for in finish etc but shows the construction i was trying to describe, and from the look of it it is like a kitchen top cabinet? as in fixed to the wall?

http://www.gomodern.co.uk/store/files/l ... -large.jpg

 

[moon]

Sorry again, but i found a couple another pic that better shows what i meant

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=bridge ... 29,r:9,s:0

 

[jasonB]

1. The glued on strip method is a little more at risk of warping, I don't use it much and when I have done so not had any problems.

2. Cost of MDF & a bit of paint will be less than bought in, its the time factor that makes the difference

3. As a pair of doors are typically 1000-1200 wide any shelf or hanging rail that long is likely to sag so better to either build carcase with a central panel or separate carcase behind each door.

4.Yes make a short long carcase with vertical dividers and a solid 18mm back. Fix it to the two tall cabinets either side and also some fixings into the wall behind.

5 Yes but see below

6. Even with the plugs pushed back into teh structural wall there is a risk of the protruding screws sagging. Best option is to cut out a strip of plasterboard and fix a heavy timber of a couple of strips of ply to the masonary and then put your fixings into this.

 

[moon]

Awesome thanks again mate

With regards to the doors, i am thinking about getting a good quality circular saw plus guide (depends on how my thread in the tool sections goes). It would be handy to be able to cut the doors exactly the size i want etc plus would be handy for ripping down big sheets , especially as storage is very limited.

I will put some ply in place to fix the top box to, but i have a couple more questions if you dont mind.

1. To fix the top box to the wardrobes, should i use the same fixings as normal to screw to carcasses together? And just screw through the side as usual? Or is there some bracket method i should use?
2. As the doors are not going to be inset, with the divider panels should i put 2 x18mm dividers right next to each other? AS to edges for the doors to sit on? (sorry if that doesnt make sense)
3. The space i have got to work with is 2900mm. So i was thinking 2 x 600mm wardrobes, with a 1500 top box (leavening enough space for a double bed), with the top boix split into 3 units of 500mm. DO my dimesions sound good to you?
4. Is 1500mm to wide (heavy) for a top box?

About the double wardrobe, that space is 800mm wide so i was thinking it would need to be a double wardrobe as i thought 800mm would be wide for a single door? Would you recommend 2 x 400mm carcasses? Or A 800mm carcass with a divider panel? Or at 800mm can i get away with one carcass and no divider?

Thanks again for all your help Hopefully that should be the last of my questions, unless any issues come in the construction process. I dont know if it interests you but i plan to take pictures throughout the build, and i would be more than happy to post them for you.

cheers
moon

 

[jasonB]

1. there is a slight risk of screws pulling out over time better to use some carcase connectors

2. You can just have a single sheet of board as the divider for two doors to close against, like this

3. I make that 2700 (600+1500+600) either way does not allow for any low bedside cabinet which quite a few people like. If you don't want bedside cabs I would have 50mm scribe each side, 600 tall cabinets and then 1600 bridging unit, gives you a bit of room to tuck sheets in and the matress may be 1500 but the bed if often a bit more. How deep will these units be it may seem like sleeping in a tunnel if they are tight to teh bed and 600mm deep.

4. 1500 is fine for a bridging unit they are often more - bed plus two bedside cabs.

You could probably get away with a singel 800 carcase if its lightly loaded but I would go for a single central divider.

Yep start another post in the projects section when you get started.

J

 

[moon]

Thanks again mate

Sorry i wasn't very clear on my last post. For the top box, i was planning to have 3 doors (500mm wide, although 533mm with the new dimensions 0f 1600mm carcass) and so 2 dividers, which is why i thought i would need to double each divider and have 2 x 18mm dividers next to each other for the doors to rest on?

Sorry i wasn't very clear on the dimensions there either, my dimensions did only add up to 2700mm but i thought i would leave 200mm for a bit of tolerance and scribing the edges, i assume i was going way overkill with my tolerance tolerance though lol. The bed going in there is 1350mm so i thought a 1500mm gap would leave some room, although if the bed was replaced for a 1500mm bed then it wouldn't fit as you suggested.

Ok cool, i will start a new thread once i have started my project and post the pics in there.

I have a couple more questions if you dont mind.

1. With my above explanation of having 3 doors in the bridge unit, would you recommend having double dividers (36mm)?
2. What size are bridge units normally? Do you think with my total dimensions of 2900mm i can and should fit bedside tables in as well? What would you suggest dimensions wise? Perhaps i should decrease the size of the wardrobe on either end?
3. In order to fix the bridge units hanging brackets should i construct the bridge unit carcass slightly differently? As in have the 18mm back stepped forward a touch (kitchen cabinet style)? Or can i fit the back on as usual covering the frame as it were, and use some hanging bracket that allows the back to sit flush (sorry if i haven't explained very well)? What is best in this situation?

Once again thanks for all your help so far, it is very much appreciated indeed.

cheers
moon

 

[jasonB]

1. You can still use a single divider, the central door will either need whats called a "duel" hinge so it covers half the divider width. But its quite common to have the bridging unit doors top hung so set the single divider central to the two door edges.

2. They can be quite long - king size bed plus a couple of say 400mm cupboard. If the room is not that large it may be better to stick with the 50mm scribe & 600 wardrobe each side and have a bit of space around the bed, if you are not careful you will end up with very little wardrobe space.

3.You will need to inset the back to allow room for the wall brackets, this also needs to be done on the two side wardrobes as you don't want to see the cut edge of the back when laying in bed though it does not need to be inset so far. Fixing teh back onto the rear edge of teh carcases only works when going wall to wall as it can't be seen when fixed.

J