Building dovetailed metal planes - slight snag

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Flartybarty

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Amailloux, France
Hi all,

I have a small problem which I'm hoping someone will solve for me. A few months ago, I started making metal dovetailed planes. so far, three mitre planes. I've almost completed a steel and brass rebate but I've hit a slight snag. The wedge on these planes is partly kept in place by a steel (or brass) bridge on the top of the plane - I believe it's otherwise known as the keeper.

Question is - how is it fixed in position ? I have a number of rebate and shoulder planes - most of them have this bridge but only one, possibly two of my planes are dovetailed construction and I have examined both until I'm boss-eyed but cannot see how the bridge is fixed to the body of the plane. It must be either riveted, dovetailed or soldered/brazed in position but examining my other planes reveals precisely nada.

Has anyone encountered this before in building shoulder/rebate planes ???
 
Do you need a keeper / bridge ?

My dovetailed Robert Towell rebate doesn't have one.

The cast ones do and they have big ones, funnily enough I bought a cracked cast shoulder a few weeks ago and that has a short bridge and thats where it cracked (design fault) it had been repaired and cracked again.

The only dovetailed shoulder I own apart from the Towell rebate only has a small bridge and thats riveted in place.

Found this pic recently from a defunct kit maker.

Legacykit 2.jpg


That's how Bill Carter does his Bridges, I'm sure you will find the answer on his youtube channel.
 

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Yes, that makes sense. A couple of my cast planes don't have keepers and that doesn't seem to make a lot of difference, although it might do over a few years of use. I shall give this some thought. It will be difficult to do because I've already peened the dovetails holding the sole on. Might have to resort to riveting,

Thanks vm for the pic. Bill Carter has been an inspiration and I've watched all his Youtube clips with great interest. When I've finished this plane, I'm going for a smoother and maybe another mitre. I would like to make my own "Norris" adjusters but not easy without a metalworking lathe, although not impossible.

Again thanks for the reply.
 
Not a fan of adjusters on infills, not heard great things and never tempted to find out for myself.

Can't imagine a cast shoulder without a bridge, any chance of a pic ?
 
I made a bridge for my shoulder plane.
post1295530.html?hilit=questions%20on%20metal%20shoulder%20plane#p1295530

If I was missing one and wanted one, one way would be to weld a bridge instead of dovetail piened tenons, I ended up having to weld the bed on mine because of my flawed design.
I was thinking if I wanted to make another, that's the way I might do it, although I was thinking of making the bridge as I did with the first, not for any reason though, just for a nod kinda thing.

I hope your plane is not too polished at the moment.
Love to see pics
Thanks
Tom
 
STA72710.JPG
These are my efforts to date. The large mitre was my first and I messed up the dovetails because I chose the wrong brass - CZ121 - which is great for machining but is not truly malleable - even after heat treatment. It cuts but I'm not proud of it. I make sure I buy CZ108 now although it's more expensive (higher copper content). Stuffing is Goncalo Alvez. The small mitre used the last of the CZ121 with a walnut stuffing (ex-gunstock!). I then tried ny hand at an all steel plane so made a small "improved" mitre plane (1-1/4") with some stained Olive - a much undervalued timber. I'm planning to make another, much larger version. I've learned a lot along the way - especially about the right and wrong metal to use. Also when cutting the lever caps, I've realised that I've made the mistake of drilling the adjustment screw hole AFTER shaping the cap. Should be the other way around. Difficult areas for me are getting the bed angle of the mouth right and, above all, dead square - not just in line with the plane, but across as well. For this job, I've found that a chisel ground straight across makes a great scraper.
STA72709.JPG

The WIP rebate is waiting for a wedge and for the blade to be tempered. The bridge is not yet pinned in place. Infill is Macassar Ebony. I had intended for it to be 9-1/4" long but after one disaster, I had to cut it down slightly. Hey, I'm just starting, Bill Carter has been at this for decades and has made 1000 infill planes (even he admits to making the occasional mistake).
STA72711.JPG

For Mr_Pea's interest here's a pic of a shoulder plane without a keeper. I think these were offered as a cheaper alternative with the cost of the keeper being an additonal sixpence (6d).
 

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Beautiful planes Flartybarty,
Thanks for showing them off.
Looking forward to seeing more of your work 8)

Tom
 
They look great great, I'd be well pleased if they were my first attempts. Its on my list, just need to get of my posterior and get on with it.

Thanks for the shoulder pic, new to me so many thanks. Here is the one I bought recently, I took a hacksaw to it to retrieve the infill

005.JPG


So after seeing your keeperless version maybe it wasn't a design fault, just a careless woodworker who kept dropping his plane.

Looks like you've mastered bent backs, why not a thumb plane next ?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-infi ... EBIDX%3AIT
 

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£400 for a tiny chariot plane !!!!! I have Hans Brunner's book on infill planes, which I've sort of used as a pattern book, and in it he mentions selling a mitre plane for $10,000. Some people have too much money !! I shall probably continue making these things now that I'm hooked. A chariot plane would definitely be cheaper in terms of material, although I've never seen the point of them.

Steel is cheap enough, but soft brass is pricey - due to the higher copper content. Of course, when making the lever caps, you can buy the (slightly) cheaper, harder brass. I've made a few wooden planes, but where I live (in mid-west France), Beech isn't common, whereas Oak is - so I was able to make a new bench with 3" top in solid Oak for €120. Don't think that would be possible in the UK.

Thanks for all your kind comments, it's nice to have your work appraised by fellow woodworkers. As I said, I'm constantly learning and always open to tips or constructive criticism.
 
Finished the rebate. Cuts very nicely with a 1/16" mouth. Weighs about 3lb. The main stuffing is Macassar Ebony but the wedge is a different Ebony and when cutting it, although it had quite a nice smell, it was quite overpowering - even with a mask.
STA72715.JPG

The pin holding the keeper needs to be replaced. damn CZ121 again - will not peen satisfactorily.
STA72717.JPG

Not terribly happy with the dovetails on the sole but not too bad.
STA72716.JPG

Next up is a Norris-type smoother. I've been looking on line for adjusters which don't cost an arm & a leg but the guy in the States who I bought the last one from has now bundled his adjusters with a brass lever cap and iron for $140 - which I suppose if not bad value but all I really want is the adjuster. Back to the drawing board (back of a fag packet).
 

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Well done that man, Rome wasn't built in a day, practice makes perfect etc....

Does it work ? Yes it does "Cuts very nicely" onwards and upwards.

Ask him for just the adjuster ? Nothing to lose.
 
Flartybarty, I was looking elsewhere & didn't see your thread 'til now. I would've offered the same solution for your 'keeper' (I've always known it as a 'bridge') that you ended up using, so I wouldn't have been much help anyway.

I've been fabricating metal panes for over a decade, but still on the steep part of the learning curve - there's a lot to get right to make a great, as opposed to a usable or merely 'good-enough' plane! :?
A couple of tips that might help others a bit.
The first is to do with peening - I simply cannot get the more malleable brass here at any price, so I'm stuck with the harder, machinable type for everything. What I buy is called 380, which is probably equivalent to your harder alloy. It's supposedly rated as 'good' for cold working, but it won't take a lot of beating without splitting & flaking - I wish I could get the stuff with tin as well as zinc in it, in plate form ('naval brass'). On the other hand, both mild steel & gauge-plate (in annealed form) are quite good for peening, so just make sure you do most of your filling from the steel side rather than the brass. This is pretty easy to do in a typical plane, because of the way the dovetails are cut. If you get a nice initial fit of the sides to sole, most of the metal movement required is to fill the chamfers over the brass tails, the tails themselves should take only a little peening to close any small voids on the sole side.

Second tip - it takes very little metal to lock things together, be it a D/T or a rivet head. Early on, I made the mistake of putting overly large chamfers on my tails, or making the countersinks to peen rivets into, too deep & too wide. If you use a typical countersink bit, it makes a recess that is wider than necessary by the time you get a bit of depth. I now use a very simple hand tool - an old saw file file ground to a triangular point, which is more acute than a typical rose bit. It takes about 6 twists in brass to make a very adequate recess for a 3.2mm rivet:
A3 Rivet countersinks.jpg

Keep the amount of rivet protruding to the minimum required to safely fill the hole - I find about 1.5mm just right to fill the recesses shown. If you have too much protrusion, it takes a lot of bashing to fill the recess, and what tends to happen (if the metal doesn't split & flake badly!) is that you think you've got it nicely filled, but when you file off the excess, there are pits & voids. Not at all what you want!
Here is the plane above after the rivets were set & the sides cleaned-up:
A8 cleaning up.jpg


I've built a fair number of shoulder & rebate planes, and gravitated to a method that I think is pretty simple & perhaps a good way to launch into metal plane making. Instead of dovetailing sides to sole, I rivet the sides to brass core-pieces. These are the components ready to assemble:
Bits.jpg


There are a couple of advantages in doing it this way. For starters, it simplifies construction and fairly importantly for a shoulder plane, it gives the tool plenty of heft. Second, the entire blade bed is pre-prepared, and all you have to do at the clean-up stage is carefully level the side pieces - far less mucking about than fitting infill over a thin sole & trying to get it mating perfectly. If done properly, the rivets will give you a very sturdy construction & should disappear when filed & sanded flush. There is one part that needs a bit more attention; those little projections of the sides along the bottom of the blade wedge are too narrow to rivet, so I run some solder in there after the body is assembled.
It's also an easier option for those with few metal-working tools & minimal experience because brass comes in various thicknesses that can be added together to make widths that will fit off-the-shelf blades - e.g. 3.2mm sides plus a 13mm core makes a plane that takes a 19mm or 3/4" blade. I've made them this way for 1/2", 3/4" and 1" blades:
Miller pattern.jpg


Hope that's a little bit helpful to anyone thinking of giving it a go...
Cheers,
 

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I do like your work - interesting about rivets. I had thought about it but the brass rod I've been buying is the hard stuff and, despite annealing, is still not very malleable. Steel will do, of course, but I like using brass rivets with brass plate, steel with steel plate. Another thing is simply using slightly countersunk wood screws and grinding the heads off on the belt sander. Is that cheating ?
I've heard this can lead to problems if the infill loosens but the infill I fit is a) quite seasoned and b) a VERY tight fit. Presently finishing off a large smoother/short panel plane which will make my fifth effort to date. I think I'm getting the hang of the dovetails at last. After using brass CZ108 (found on ebay) which is aimed at modelmakers, I'm increasingly inclined to concentrate on using mild steel throughout - which is both a lot cheaper and if you do the dovetails well, the joint is invisible.

I have a list of tools to make :

An "improved" type mitre plane with 2-1/2" iron
A chariot plane (larely to use up some of the scrap)
A Norris-type smoother
A chisel plane - this one is nice (https://notesfromtheshop.wordpress.com/welcome/infill-chisel-plane/)
And, very ambitious, a 30" jointer like the one Bill Carter made. HAH !! :D
I think most will be steel throughout - it's even easier to peen than brass CZ108.

Looking through the internet, I'm struck by how many people on both sides of the Atlantic are making infill planes. Sure, there are many antique planes about but they must be almost equalled by the number of superb new planes being produced by amateurs all over. These are as good as, if not better, than the Norris's and Spiers and will, in time, be the antiques of the future.

Again - thanks for your input, all tips and info gratefully received.
 
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