You have had knowledge of this for 4 years, why didn't you move in those 4 years? Did you actually ever intend to live in Europe or is it only an issue now because it would be more difficult from today?
Bringing goods from the EU
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You have had knowledge of this for 4 years, why didn't you move in those 4 years? Did you actually ever intend to live in Europe or is it only an issue now because it would be more difficult from today?
My life? As far as I can tell I see absolutely no change in my life whatsoever, in EU or out of EU it makes no odds to me. I travel for holidays, that won't change, I have no intention of moving away from the UK. Most of my business is exporting outside of the EU so no change there and the materials I do import from the EU will get a little bit more expensive (I think, not sure on that yet).
I am trying to buy a house at the moment, possibly house prices will go down, or at least stop rising so fast that they are outstripping my savings power. Not sure, maybe that won't change at all.
doctor Bob
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I think you missed the point of my post but it doesn't matter.
Best take that up with former MEP's like Baroness Claire Fox then. Her words, not mine.
Richard_C
Established Member
The 4 underlying EU principles do look a lot like a neoliberal wish list, but unlike any other trading block the EU has balanced that with strict protections for its citizens.
The mobility rights might appeal more to the better off, but the protections enshrined in EU law have done far more for the less well off than people realise. It's not just employment rights, its consumer rights, data protection, environmental, food standards, fair(er) banking, all sorts put into UK law because of EU directives. The UK acting alone would never have tidied up the TUPE loopholes that allowed employers to dismiss staff if they sold the business, introduced extended maternity rights, given at least some rights to part time and agency workers, stopped pumping untreated raw sewage into the sea or insisted on traceability of many foods. So when a close relative is fired, or gets pregnant, or finds their employer sold off, or many other things look back to what it would have been like for them 48 years ago. EU directives set out a minimum, countries can do more, just look at maternity rights and pay in Scandinavia, so all the bluster about now we are out we can make things better is just that, cheap soundbite bluster.
Now, I know Johnson and May before him promised to maintain all those things, but the legal obligation to do so was quietly dropped from the withdrawal bill. So now the UK Govt is free to do as it pleases and argue about tariffs afterwards.
Lots of people, particularly those in precarious employment, have to rely on Johnson keeping his promises. He doesn't have a good record.
The EU runs on consensus politics. It takes time but the extremes get weeded out. That is an anathema to our "Britain is best, I have the right to do what I want and do it now" rhetoric around sovereignty. We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.
I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.
The mobility rights might appeal more to the better off, but the protections enshrined in EU law have done far more for the less well off than people realise. It's not just employment rights, its consumer rights, data protection, environmental, food standards, fair(er) banking, all sorts put into UK law because of EU directives. The UK acting alone would never have tidied up the TUPE loopholes that allowed employers to dismiss staff if they sold the business, introduced extended maternity rights, given at least some rights to part time and agency workers, stopped pumping untreated raw sewage into the sea or insisted on traceability of many foods. So when a close relative is fired, or gets pregnant, or finds their employer sold off, or many other things look back to what it would have been like for them 48 years ago. EU directives set out a minimum, countries can do more, just look at maternity rights and pay in Scandinavia, so all the bluster about now we are out we can make things better is just that, cheap soundbite bluster.
Now, I know Johnson and May before him promised to maintain all those things, but the legal obligation to do so was quietly dropped from the withdrawal bill. So now the UK Govt is free to do as it pleases and argue about tariffs afterwards.
Lots of people, particularly those in precarious employment, have to rely on Johnson keeping his promises. He doesn't have a good record.
The EU runs on consensus politics. It takes time but the extremes get weeded out. That is an anathema to our "Britain is best, I have the right to do what I want and do it now" rhetoric around sovereignty. We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.
I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.
Awac
Established Member
We have different opinions, and neither of us knows. If you make a business decision without all the facts and it goes wrong then people will say "what did you expect, you have been very cavalier in your attitude". I see no difference with what has happened with brexit. I wish you luck with finding a house, I know the problem. For or against, I still hold with what I said:
"A non-partisan public funded report should have been put forward to the public. We all think we are right, but nobody has produced such a report that we could have voted on with an informed non emotional opinion. I could accept the result then".
Now this is an area I must take issue with. Firstly we have no idea what things would have been like outside of the EU for the last 50 years, so you can't say that we are better protected because of it, especially since we were a contributing partner so we had a say in all those laws being created. We could have had the same, similar or even better protection if we had been independent, you don't know because UK politics in that period has been shaped by membership.
Secondly, if you don't like the current situation, vote, campaign, stand for Parliament. You don't put trust in governments, you vote them in and then if they don't do what you wanted, you vote them out. That's democracy.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
OK so in or out makes no difference to you but can you tell us how it will benefit anybody else: directly that is, in real terms, personally, not remote pie in the sky? This seems to be the question which nobody ever answers.
Awac
Established Member
Hit the nail squarely on the head.
I tried, you didn't like it you just posted articles from remainer media sources.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Try again? n.b. they weren't only remainer sources if you have a look.
Awac
Established Member
Jacob, he has answered that. He doesn't know.
Brexit. Such a big decision, so little information.
It has been driven by people who want to be big fishes in a little pond in my opinion (my opinion, not fact!).
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
That Guardian article points out that although the UK neoliberals are now released from EU civilising influences, there may yet be an alternative Labour govt which could benefit from freedom from EU constraints. It might all work out for the best!
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/the-left-brexit-economic-uk
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
People seem to be assuming the worst here: just because you no longer have an automatic right to travel, work, or live in the EU, it doesn't mean you are completely forbidden, for ever. It just means a little bit of paperwork, which you would probably have to have completed anyway. Europeans like identity cards, residency permits et al, and they require all of that even for EU "citizens". If you want to buy a house in France and live there full time, it just takes a bit more paperwork now.
The only people who will struggle to live there full-time will be the unemployed and unqualified. Even then, your average Brit will be in a much better position than an indigent Afghani or Nigerian, both of which are ten a penny all across the EU.
The only people who will struggle to live there full-time will be the unemployed and unqualified. Even then, your average Brit will be in a much better position than an indigent Afghani or Nigerian, both of which are ten a penny all across the EU.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
That's rather missing the point; the changes to fishing rights was raised as a benefit, but it's actually the British fishing industry that seems to be rather unhappy with the end result (I believe one direct quote was "a fudge"). Which paper(s) that was reported in doesn't really matter (unless it's believed that the report itself is factually untrue).
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
You have slightly missed the point.
It is the unemployed, unqualified, refugees of various sorts, who have most to gain by moving; to find employment, training, education, qualifications, to make them independent and to make them net contributors to society.
There's been an EU move towards the "social chapter" i.e. concern about quality of lives, as well as facilitating trade and business which is was kicked it off. Now being "revised" in the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Social_Charter
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sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
Dunno... I mean, all of us opinionated a-holes are present aren't we?
Dunno... I mean, all of us opinionated a-holes are present aren't we?
Nothing wrong with being opinionated, I certainly am. It's when you attack others because they hold a different one that you get trouble.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Yep. I'd hate anybody to think I wasn't still an opinionated a-hole!Dunno... I mean, all of us opinionated a-holes are present aren't we?
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