Bringing goods from the EU

[Rorschach]

+1

Yesterday I had the freedom to live and work anywhere in Europe, waking up today that's no longer the case. I get that the vote's done and it's time to move on, but the truth is that right now I feel the loss of that freedom sorely, a lot more than I expected to.

I've got duel citizenship, British and Canadian. I'll stick around for a year or two, but if I still feel this same sense of loss of liberty, then a move to Vancouver's on the cards.

You have had knowledge of this for 4 years, why didn't you move in those 4 years? Did you actually ever intend to live in Europe or is it only an issue now because it would be more difficult from today?

 

[Rorschach]

I'm interested, how is your life going to change?

My life? As far as I can tell I see absolutely no change in my life whatsoever, in EU or out of EU it makes no odds to me. I travel for holidays, that won't change, I have no intention of moving away from the UK. Most of my business is exporting outside of the EU so no change there and the materials I do import from the EU will get a little bit more expensive (I think, not sure on that yet).
I am trying to buy a house at the moment, possibly house prices will go down, or at least stop rising so fast that they are outstripping my savings power. Not sure, maybe that won't change at all.

 

[doctor Bob]

And the Irish famine was exacerbated by the English government, doesn't make you a bad person by being English. My point is bad and good in every culture and people. This is a bad person we are talking about, not a nationality.

I think you missed the point of my post but it doesn't matter.

 

[Rorschach]

I understood perfectly what you meant, it's just not accurate.

Best take that up with former MEP's like Baroness Claire Fox then. Her words, not mine.

 

[Richard_C]

The 4 underlying EU principles do look a lot like a neoliberal wish list, but unlike any other trading block the EU has balanced that with strict protections for its citizens.

The mobility rights might appeal more to the better off, but the protections enshrined in EU law have done far more for the less well off than people realise. It's not just employment rights, its consumer rights, data protection, environmental, food standards, fair(er) banking, all sorts put into UK law because of EU directives. The UK acting alone would never have tidied up the TUPE loopholes that allowed employers to dismiss staff if they sold the business, introduced extended maternity rights, given at least some rights to part time and agency workers, stopped pumping untreated raw sewage into the sea or insisted on traceability of many foods. So when a close relative is fired, or gets pregnant, or finds their employer sold off, or many other things look back to what it would have been like for them 48 years ago. EU directives set out a minimum, countries can do more, just look at maternity rights and pay in Scandinavia, so all the bluster about now we are out we can make things better is just that, cheap soundbite bluster.

Now, I know Johnson and May before him promised to maintain all those things, but the legal obligation to do so was quietly dropped from the withdrawal bill. So now the UK Govt is free to do as it pleases and argue about tariffs afterwards.

Lots of people, particularly those in precarious employment, have to rely on Johnson keeping his promises. He doesn't have a good record.

The EU runs on consensus politics. It takes time but the extremes get weeded out. That is an anathema to our "Britain is best, I have the right to do what I want and do it now" rhetoric around sovereignty. We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.

I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.

 

[Awac]

My life? As far as I can tell I see absolutely no change in my life whatsoever, in EU or out of EU it makes no odds to me. I travel for holidays, that won't change, I have no intention of moving away from the UK. Most of my business is exporting outside of the EU so no change there and the materials I do import from the EU will get a little bit more expensive (I think, not sure on that yet).
I am trying to buy a house at the moment, possibly house prices will go down, or at least stop rising so fast that they are outstripping my savings power. Not sure, maybe that won't change at all.

We have different opinions, and neither of us knows. If you make a business decision without all the facts and it goes wrong then people will say "what did you expect, you have been very cavalier in your attitude". I see no difference with what has happened with brexit. I wish you luck with finding a house, I know the problem. For or against, I still hold with what I said:

"A non-partisan public funded report should have been put forward to the public. We all think we are right, but nobody has produced such a report that we could have voted on with an informed non emotional opinion. I could accept the result then".

 

[Rorschach]

We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.

I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.

Now this is an area I must take issue with. Firstly we have no idea what things would have been like outside of the EU for the last 50 years, so you can't say that we are better protected because of it, especially since we were a contributing partner so we had a say in all those laws being created. We could have had the same, similar or even better protection if we had been independent, you don't know because UK politics in that period has been shaped by membership.

Secondly, if you don't like the current situation, vote, campaign, stand for Parliament. You don't put trust in governments, you vote them in and then if they don't do what you wanted, you vote them out. That's democracy.

 

[Jacob]

My life? As far as I can tell I see absolutely no change in my life whatsoever, in EU or out of EU it makes no odds to me. I travel for holidays, that won't change, I have no intention of moving away from the UK. Most of my business is exporting outside of the EU so no change there and the materials I do import from the EU will get a little bit more expensive (I think, not sure on that yet).
I am trying to buy a house at the moment, possibly house prices will go down, or at least stop rising so fast that they are outstripping my savings power. Not sure, maybe that won't change at all.

OK so in or out makes no difference to you but can you tell us how it will benefit anybody else: directly that is, in real terms, personally, not remote pie in the sky? This seems to be the question which nobody ever answers.

 

[Awac]

The 4 underlying EU principles do look a lot like a neoliberal wish list, but unlike any other trading block the EU has balanced that with strict protections for its citizens.

The mobility rights might appeal more to the better off, but the protections enshrined in EU law have done far more for the less well off than people realise. It's not just employment rights, its consumer rights, data protection, environmental, food standards, fair(er) banking, all sorts put into UK law because of EU directives. The UK acting alone would never have tidied up the TUPE loopholes that allowed employers to dismiss staff if they sold the business, introduced extended maternity rights, given at least some rights to part time and agency workers, stopped pumping untreated raw sewage into the sea or insisted on traceability of many foods. So when a close relative is fired, or gets pregnant, or finds their employer sold off, or many other things look back to what it would have been like for them 48 years ago. EU directives set out a minimum, countries can do more, just look at maternity rights and pay in Scandinavia, so all the bluster about now we are out we can make things better is just that, cheap soundbite bluster.

Now, I know Johnson and May before him promised to maintain all those things, but the legal obligation to do so was quietly dropped from the withdrawal bill. So now the UK Govt is free to do as it pleases and argue about tariffs afterwards.

Lots of people, particularly those in precarious employment, have to rely on Johnson keeping his promises. He doesn't have a good record.

The EU runs on consensus politics. It takes time but the extremes get weeded out. That is an anathema to our "Britain is best, I have the right to do what I want and do it now" rhetoric around sovereignty. We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.

I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.

Hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

[Rorschach]

OK so in or out makes no difference to you but can you tell us how it will benefit anybody else: directly that is, in real terms, personally, not remote pie in the sky? This seems to be the question which nobody ever answers.

I tried, you didn't like it you just posted articles from remainer media sources.

 

[Jacob]

I tried, you didn't like it you just posted articles from remainer media sources.

Try again? n.b. they weren't only remainer sources if you have a look.

 

[Awac]

OK so in or out makes no difference to you but can you tell us how it will benefit anybody else: directly that is, in real terms, personally, not remote pie in the sky? This seems to be the question which nobody ever answers.

My life? As far as I can tell I see absolutely no change in my life whatsoever, in EU or out of EU it makes no odds to me. I travel for holidays, that won't change, I have no intention of moving away from the UK. Most of my business is exporting outside of the EU so no change there and the materials I do import from the EU will get a little bit more expensive (I think, not sure on that yet).
I am trying to buy a house at the moment, possibly house prices will go down, or at least stop rising so fast that they are outstripping my savings power. Not sure, maybe that won't change at all.

Jacob, he has answered that. He doesn't know.
Brexit. Such a big decision, so little information.
It has been driven by people who want to be big fishes in a little pond in my opinion (my opinion, not fact!).

 

[Jacob]

The 4 underlying EU principles do look a lot like a neoliberal wish list, but unlike any other trading block the EU has balanced that with strict protections for its citizens.

The mobility rights might appeal more to the better off, but the protections enshrined in EU law have done far more for the less well off than people realise. It's not just employment rights, its consumer rights, data protection, environmental, food standards, fair(er) banking, all sorts put into UK law because of EU directives. The UK acting alone would never have tidied up the TUPE loopholes that allowed employers to dismiss staff if they sold the business, introduced extended maternity rights, given at least some rights to part time and agency workers, stopped pumping untreated raw sewage into the sea or insisted on traceability of many foods. So when a close relative is fired, or gets pregnant, or finds their employer sold off, or many other things look back to what it would have been like for them 48 years ago. EU directives set out a minimum, countries can do more, just look at maternity rights and pay in Scandinavia, so all the bluster about now we are out we can make things better is just that, cheap soundbite bluster.

Now, I know Johnson and May before him promised to maintain all those things, but the legal obligation to do so was quietly dropped from the withdrawal bill. So now the UK Govt is free to do as it pleases and argue about tariffs afterwards.

Lots of people, particularly those in precarious employment, have to rely on Johnson keeping his promises. He doesn't have a good record.

The EU runs on consensus politics. It takes time but the extremes get weeded out. That is an anathema to our "Britain is best, I have the right to do what I want and do it now" rhetoric around sovereignty. We were better protected and safer in the EU. That was what we lost last night.

I wish I could join those who trust Johnson, Gove, Truss and their cabal to look after our interests, but I can't.

That Guardian article points out that although the UK neoliberals are now released from EU civilising influences, there may yet be an alternative Labour govt which could benefit from freedom from EU constraints. It might all work out for the best!
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/the-left-brexit-economic-uk

 

[Trainee neophyte]

People seem to be assuming the worst here: just because you no longer have an automatic right to travel, work, or live in the EU, it doesn't mean you are completely forbidden, for ever. It just means a little bit of paperwork, which you would probably have to have completed anyway. Europeans like identity cards, residency permits et al, and they require all of that even for EU "citizens". If you want to buy a house in France and live there full time, it just takes a bit more paperwork now.

The only people who will struggle to live there full-time will be the unemployed and unqualified. Even then, your average Brit will be in a much better position than an indigent Afghani or Nigerian, both of which are ten a penny all across the EU.

 

[sploo]

I tried, you didn't like it you just posted articles from remainer media sources.

That's rather missing the point; the changes to fishing rights was raised as a benefit, but it's actually the British fishing industry that seems to be rather unhappy with the end result (I believe one direct quote was "a fudge"). Which paper(s) that was reported in doesn't really matter (unless it's believed that the report itself is factually untrue).

 

[Jacob]

People seem to be assuming the worst here: just because you no longer have an automatic right to travel, work, or live in the EU, it doesn't mean you are completely forbidden, for ever. It just means a little bit of paperwork, which you would probably have to have completed anyway. Europeans like identity cards, residency permits et al, and they require all of that even for EU "citizens". If you want to buy a house in France and live there full time, it just takes a bit more paperwork now.

The only people who will struggle to live there full-time will be the unemployed and unqualified. Even then, your average Brit will be in a much better position than an indigent Afghani or Nigerian, both of which are ten a penny all across the EU.

You have slightly missed the point.
It is the unemployed, unqualified, refugees of various sorts, who have most to gain by moving; to find employment, training, education, qualifications, to make them independent and to make them net contributors to society.
There's been an EU move towards the "social chapter" i.e. concern about quality of lives, as well as facilitating trade and business which is was kicked it off. Now being "revised" in the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Social_Charter

 

[Rorschach]

I must admit it is lovely to see a debate going on here without resorts to personal insults. I wonder if it is because certain members are not involved or maybe the topic isn't as emotive?

 

[sploo]

I must admit it is lovely to see a debate going on here without resorts to personal insults. I wonder if it is because certain members are not involved or maybe the topic isn't as emotive?

Dunno... I mean, all of us opinionated a-holes are present aren't we?

 

[Rorschach]

Dunno... I mean, all of us opinionated a-holes are present aren't we?

Nothing wrong with being opinionated, I certainly am. It's when you attack others because they hold a different one that you get trouble.

 

[Jacob]

Dunno... I mean, all of us opinionated a-holes are present aren't we?

Yep. I'd hate anybody to think I wasn't still an opinionated a-hole!