Bringing goods from the EU

[sploo]

All politicians are mendacious and manipulative by nature, one party is no better than another IMO.

There are no correct answers anyway only opinions. As the indisputable science has proven during this pandemic.
The scientists are like Brexit politicians.

Has wearing masks reduced transmission ? not according to the figures I am seeing.
Some 'science' could say - image how bad it would be if we were not wearing masks.

To be a successful politician you've got to be good at getting what you want; but the "all politicians lie" trope is dangerous - because it normalises the likes of Trump or Johnson. Granted it would be fairly hard to point to any politician and claim they're the model of truth and honesty, but most are not pathological liars. Dismissing all as bad means we bury our heads and allow the very worst ones to continue unchallenged, because we accept it as somehow normal; it's not.

Scientists are nothing remotely like Brexit politicians. Science may not always be right, and not every scientist is honest, but the overwhelming majority are simply trying to gather data in order to test hypotheses. When one says "we don't know" - it means we don't know (yet). That honesty is critically important, and much better than the charlatans who claim to have all the answers. Tragically that caution appears to be interpreted by many as a lack of certainly, competence, or honesty; whereas the con-men who confidently broadcast their version of truth to the world are all too often seen as the ones to hear.

 

[Benchwayze]

Didn’t mean to imply you didn’t care John

Sadly i think you did. And this twisting of my words by Droogs when he knows fine well what I meant by Britain, is just typical pedantry to score cheap points. It doesn't work with me. Still say there's a lot of whinging getting in the way of any so called debate.

Bye

 

[Ollie78]

[/QUOTE]

What makes the Brexit debate so hard is the endless dishonesty....mostly from the Leave side, although the remain project fear in 2016 was also dishonest.

every Brexit debate is pretty much taken up with debunking dishonest or misleading claims there's nothing left for meaningful debate.


EU membership for UK did have problems and there are some opportunities for the UK now it's left. But those debates have never been had and never will because the Leave campaign was and still is built on stuff that's not true, namely sovereignty, freedom, fishing etc.

This is so true.

Trying to find a real fact about brexit is at this point completely impossible.
I would love for someone with no vested interest to do a real study into the lies of all sides and the real facts. I suggest maybe a Japanese university or someone like that. It would certainly make interesting reading.

Ollie

 

[Jacob]

This is so true.

Trying to find a real fact about brexit is at this point completely impossible.
I would love for someone with no vested interest to do a real study into the lies of all sides and the real facts. I suggest maybe a Japanese university or someone like that. It would certainly make interesting reading.

Ollie

We are just waiting for somebody to explain how brexit will benefit them or their business, now, in the real world, not pie in the sky. What opportunities are now available to them and how are they exploiting them?
It's the missing link - surely there'd be something tangible?

 

[Mark Hancock]

To be a successful politician you've got to be good at getting what you want; but the "all politicians lie" trope is dangerous - because it normalises the likes of Trump or Johnson. Granted it would be fairly hard to point to any politician and claim they're the model of truth and honesty, but most are not pathological liars. Dismissing all as bad means we bury our heads and allow the very worst ones to continue unchallenged, because we accept it as somehow normal; it's not.

Scientists are nothing remotely like Brexit politicians. Science may not always be right, and not every scientist is honest, but the overwhelming majority are simply trying to gather data in order to test hypotheses. When one says "we don't know" - it means we don't know (yet). That honesty is critically important, and much better than the charlatans who claim to have all the answers. Tragically that caution appears to be interpreted by many as a lack of certainly, competence, or honesty; whereas the con-men who confidently broadcast their version of truth to the world are all too often seen as the ones to hear.

I’ve refrained from getting involved in this thread although I have been following it with first amusement and then despair. Despair at the polarization we find in society today e.g. covid, Trump, Brexit etc.

Politicians:
A “good” politician is not one who gets want he wants. IMHO a good politician is one who has integrity, morality, honesty, open minded and able to change their stance through rational argument. Sadly due to the party system there are very few about simply because if they are elected when a member of a political party they then have to conform and abide with the views of that party or face expulsion and possible deselection. My local MP is a classic example of this; he has agreed with Cameron, May and Johnson, changing his views on each change of PM, purely to maintain his role as a minor minister in each administration – my cynical view and I have the same views of other political parties.

Scientists:
Science is not an exact discipline. It’s about discovering, understanding and trying to quantify. I vaguely remember the number of planets in our solar system from my youth; now I don’t. I also recall using different theories (wave or particle) to explain different phenomenon depending on the situation. Those that quote data from scientific sources first need to understand the parameters under which that data was arrived at; saw today someone saying a covid vaccine was a problem because one person died “from it”!

Trying to combine the two, politicians and scientists, to inform the public, as in the present pandemic situation, was never going to work unless the former took the unprecedented step of putting their party dogma to one side and worked for the benefit of all.

Fake News:
I never heard of this until about five years ago and I sadly believe it’s why we find ourselves where we are. I hate generalisation but it would appear that a large majority nowadays accept what they see/ are told/fed, be it from news sources or social media, without thought or question. I saw recently on either this thread or another on this forum where misinformation which had been debunked ages ago was yet again peddled as a response. Those that do this are part of the problem. They should be held accountable as all it does is polarize people further and fuel the ludicrous conspiratorial theories that abound e.g. man-made virus, microchip in vaccine, rigged elections etc. I’ve stopped calling these people out as it always seem to end in abuse rather that rational discussion.

I’ll respond to genuine comments but any going down the semantic line I’m not concerned with. I’ve tried to be as clear as possible and am only interested in rational discussion.

 

[Benchwayze]

Please dont conflate debating with moaning or whining.

Leaving the Single Market has created very significant trade barriers which will have a damaging impact on UK business for many many years.

Why are you scared of this being discussed......perhaps you don't want Brexit reality being scrutinised.
[/QUOTE

Don't talk wet! No one really knows yet to be honest. We all have to wait a while instead of jumping in. I just am sick of the whinging is all.
And why did you respond to my originsl charge of whinging and moaning? Was there a bit of guilt there? Lol!
Bye-bye.

 

[RobinBHM]

I used to have an account with Hettich UK, they used to hold most stock in Germany....but orders arrived in 3 days. I can't see rapid supply chains

Don't presume to read my thoughts Robin.

To paraphrase Morgan Freeman In Shawshank Redemption . Get busy working or get busy folding up.
You are British? Well live with it and get behind the rest. No More from me.

Yet you presume to read my thoughts by interpreting debating as moaning.


How can I get behind Brexit when this Brexit government can't get behind Brexit?

It is blindingly obvious this government don't believe in Brexit, because if they did, they wouldn't be pushing out lies and misinformation about it.


People who are proud of their achievement are happy to be honest about it.

 

[RobinBHM]

I’ve refrained from getting involved in this thread although I have been following it with first amusement and then despair. Despair at the polarization we find in society today e.g. covid, Trump, Brexit etc.

Politicians:
A “good” politician is not one who gets want he wants. IMHO a good politician is one who has integrity, morality, honesty, open minded and able to change their stance through rational argument. Sadly due to the party system there are very few about simply because if they are elected when a member of a political party they then have to conform and abide with the views of that party or face expulsion and possible deselection. My local MP is a classic example of this; he has agreed with Cameron, May and Johnson, changing his views on each change of PM, purely to maintain his role as a minor minister in each administration – my cynical view and I have the same views of other political parties.

Scientists:
Science is not an exact discipline. It’s about discovering, understanding and trying to quantify. I vaguely remember the number of planets in our solar system from my youth; now I don’t. I also recall using different theories (wave or particle) to explain different phenomenon depending on the situation. Those that quote data from scientific sources first need to understand the parameters under which that data was arrived at; saw today someone saying a covid vaccine was a problem because one person died “from it”!

Trying to combine the two, politicians and scientists, to inform the public, as in the present pandemic situation, was never going to work unless the former took the unprecedented step of putting their party dogma to one side and worked for the benefit of all.

Fake News:
I never heard of this until about five years ago and I sadly believe it’s why we find ourselves where we are. I hate generalisation but it would appear that a large majority nowadays accept what they see/ are told/fed, be it from news sources or social media, without thought or question. I saw recently on either this thread or another on this forum where misinformation which had been debunked ages ago was yet again peddled as a response. Those that do this are part of the problem. They should be held accountable as all it does is polarize people further and fuel the ludicrous conspiratorial theories that abound e.g. man-made virus, microchip in vaccine, rigged elections etc. I’ve stopped calling these people out as it always seem to end in abuse rather that rational discussion.

I’ll respond to genuine comments but any going down the semantic line I’m not concerned with. I’ve tried to be as clear as possible and am only interested in rational discussion.

Great post, many thanks.

the problem is lies spread faster than the truth.....


There are only two intellectually-honest debate tactics:

1. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts
2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic

Whereas the dishonest list is much much longer

 

[Benchwayze]

Robin.

Telepathy not needed. Your post is one long moan. Give it a rest.

 

[RobinBHM]

If nobody knows yet how things will turn out.....why did you vote for Brexit?

Earlier on you claimed it will "make Britain great again" here you are know, saying "we don't know how it's going to work out"

 

[RobinBHM]

Robin.

Telepathy not needed. Your post is one long moan. Give it a rest.

Telepathy not used.

This government continuously push out Brexit mistruths....that is fact

People who are proud of true achievement are happy to be honest about it.....that is fact.


If Brexit is so great why can't they be honest?

 

[Benchwayze]

Now I am incensed.
How the he'll can you presume to know which way I voted? Look at my original post. I said WE LOST not YOU LOST. That might be a clue or it might not be. It's my business not yours

John

John

 

[Benchwayze]

Oh God give me strength. What is wrong with this fellow? He would be amusing if he wasn't so pathetic. Anything he doesn't like has to be a lie.
Think of something else Robin. Then I might waste a bit more time on responding.
For the last time my initial post said get with the program. Accept the result and get behind the job. STOP MOANING.WHICHEVER SIDE YOU ARE ON! And don't think you know which side I am on because you don't, however much you might think it's obvious.
I am done with you on this. Time to grow up sonny


John

 

[sploo]

I’ve refrained from getting involved in this thread although I have been following it with first amusement and then despair. Despair at the polarization we find in society today e.g. covid, Trump, Brexit etc.

Politicians:
A “good” politician is not one who gets want he wants. IMHO a good politician is one who has integrity, morality, honesty, open minded and able to change their stance through rational argument. Sadly due to the party system there are very few about simply because if they are elected when a member of a political party they then have to conform and abide with the views of that party or face expulsion and possible deselection. My local MP is a classic example of this; he has agreed with Cameron, May and Johnson, changing his views on each change of PM, purely to maintain his role as a minor minister in each administration – my cynical view and I have the same views of other political parties.

Yea, I probably should have said that a successful politician is one who gets what he wants

I think our local (Tory) MP probably fits the above description too. He generally seems like a decent person, but as a relatively junior member he just votes in line with the party. I suppose I should be glad to not have one of the fully swivel eyed crazies.

 

[sploo]

Oh God give me strength. What is wrong with this fellow? He would be amusing if he wasn't so pathetic. Anything he doesn't like has to be a lie.
Think of something else Robin. Then I might waste a bit more time on responding.
For the last time my initial post said get with the program. Accept the result and get behind the job. STOP MOANING.WHICHEVER SIDE YOU ARE ON! And don't think you know which side I am on because you don't, however much you might think it's obvious.
I am done with you on this. Time to grow up sonny


John

John.... you've come into the thread... to complain about people complaining... and are now complaining that Robin is complaining, when (at least based on his last few posts) he's just making pretty clear and factually based comments. I'm not quite sure what you're looking for, but it doesn't seem this thread is doing you much good.

 

[Benchwayze]

I am done with it Sploo. I ought to have known better than try to debate Marxists. It's easier to juggle with glue.
When they stop using the Guardian and other rags for their 'truths' and look for real evidence then I might come back to UKW. Maybe if they banned politics and religion on this forum like they once did it would help. As a parting shot I never mentioned sides. I merely got sick of the moaning and maybe a little rashly I said so. And I am still dismayed by it.
Regards

John

 

[sploo]

I am done with it Sploo. I ought to have known better than try to debate Marxists. It's easier to juggle with glue.
When they stop using the Guardian and other rags for their 'truths' and look for real evidence then I might come back to UKW. Maybe if they banned politics and religion on this forum like they once did it would help. As a parting shot I never mentioned sides. I merely got sick of the moaning and maybe a little rashly I said so. And I am still dismayed by it.
Regards

John

What I know about Marxism you could fit on the back of a stamp... but I'm not really seeing any in the statements above regarding Brexit. Indeed, it's not really about capitalism vs socialism, or authoritarianism vs libertarianism.

The Grauniad(sic) can be lefty nonsense (in the way the Mail is "righty" nonsense), but factual reports of parked lorries and paperwork problems at borders are just that: factual.

 

[Benchwayze]

If nobody knows yet how things will turn out.....why did you vote for Brexit?

Earlier on you claimed it will "make Britain great again" here you are know, saying "we don't know how it's going to work out"

Was this drivel aimed at me Robin?Are you saying if I don't know what the outcome will be on any subject I shouldn't vote for anything? That is truly nonsense. People vote with their heart all the time. Especially the young. And I should check your predictive text. There is now and theŕe is know. You know?
John

 

[Daniel2]

I am done with it Sploo. I ought to have known better than try to debate Marxists. It's easier to juggle with glue.
When they stop using the Guardian and other rags for their 'truths' and look for real evidence then I might come back to UKW. Maybe if they banned politics and religion on this forum like they once did it would help. As a parting shot I never mentioned sides. I merely got sick of the moaning and maybe a little rashly I said so. And I am still dismayed by it.
Regards

John

Is it too simple to not read, or participate in, threads which you find upsetting ?

 

[starlingwood]

I had a quote the other day for about 600EUROS of castors from Germany and they wanted to slap a 42EURO 'customs declaration' charge on the order. I thought UK-EU agreed a FTA at the 11th hour?