Brazing here too?

[MeltedEVERYTHING]

Hey guys, found the help on here regarding welding hlemts very useful and really appreciated. Does this community include anyone taht does brazing (copper piping, but not specifically plumbing/fridge/aircon, morer for leisure pleasure project) or any other kind?

If so can you point me at good starting literature or somewhere I can get my head round it before i take it up.

Lot of books, but not much illustrated for idiots - sites? illustrated guides?

Any useful starting points anyone would recommend?

Thansk all

 

[bourbon]

Why do you need to braze copper pipe? soft solder is plenty strong enough

 

[Chubber]

Why do you need to braze copper pipe? soft solder is plenty strong enough

If you're in France for instance, or on a boat mains pressure is considerably higher and 'soudure dure' is 'de rigeur'.

 

[ChaiLatte]

This book is a good introduction:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldering-Brazing-Workshop-Practice-Tubal/dp/0852428456

There is probably a dodgy pdf copy on the Internet Archive.

You can also use 'soldering' or 'brazing' as a search term on the above site to find many very old textbooks on the subject.

CuP Alloys have a 'help and advice' section of their website which is good.

There is a continuum of hot metal joining methods. It runs roughly soft soldering (electrical, plumbing, natural gas), silver soldering (AC, LPG) and brazing (bicycle frames).

Again, very roughly, soldering is done with lead/tin, silver soldering uses silver as an ingredient, and brazing would use brass/bronze.

As above, if anything is passing through the pipes you are joining that could do harm if it escapes, find out the correct joining method and use it.

 

[MeltedEVERYTHING]

Why do you need to braze copper pipe? soft solder is plenty strong enough

I thought that's how copper was joined.. .ike I said, I'm looking forr starting info. Never done it before.

 

[MeltedEVERYTHING]

ITs more for creative ideas, I have some dark wood and I want to build copper pipe famework to make a set of shelves... steam punk metalwork style minus the wanky goggles and Black velvet miserable goth rubbish... just lloking for info as to strength rerquirements materials to work with, process and equipment needed to build something stable, strong enough to support shelves with but less ugly than polished steel which I can alerady do...

 

[Agent_zed]

Normal soldering will be plenty strong enough. There is a bit of a trick to it. A lot of it comes down to cleaning the surfaces to start with. I normally use wirewool and clean the end of the pipe and the inside of the fitting. For plumbing applications you have to be really careful to ensure you don't leave wire strands as they can get into the solder and rust out eventually causing a leak.

Once it's clean apply flux. Put the two pieces together and heat with a blowtorch. The flux will heat up and start burning off. If you touch the end of the solder to the joint and it starts to melt then it's hot enough. touch the solder in a few places to apply enough to fill the joint then remove the heat and it will be drawn into the joint. This trick is learning how much to apply to get a good solid joint without big drops of solder hanging off the joint.

I'm never quite sure if this is recommended but I get a damp cloth and clean the joint whilst hot. You don't really want to leave unburnt flux on there as it will corrode the copper.

I'm no expert so others might be able to correct my method, but this works for me and my water pipes haven't burst in 10 years so far.

also to note that plumbing solder is lead free. You won't want the electronics solder with flux core either.
I'd also have a fan to draw away fumes from the flux, its not great stuff to breathe in.

I was pretty shocked how much plumbing solder is these days. Last time I bought a roll it was less than £10, a couple of weeks back it cost me £23!

 

[ChaiLatte]

It's more for creative ideas, I have some dark wood and I want to build copper pipe famework to make a set of shelves...

Soft solder would be more than good enough for that. Success or failure will come more from the joint design than the method of gluing it together. Solder will not work in a butt joint. A lap joint (one pipe slipped inside the other) is strong. Solder does not fill gaps well, so fit up of the joint is important. Solder does not like dirt, so hospital clean is where you should aspire.

From a looks point of view, one of these might produce nice looking joints - most standard endfeed plumbing fittings have some stamped writing on them which might detract from the finish:

https://www.plumbers-mate-sales.co....-former-tool-15mm--22mm---65002483-6210-p.asp

Cleanfit (mesh abrasive) is a better 21st century alternative to wire wool. A stainless bottle brush in a cordless drill is a lazy way to do the inside. Leaded solder is not allowed in plumbing fittings, that is the only reason why lead free is used. Leaded solder (60/40) flows much better than the lead free stuff, melts at a lower temperature, and will be easier for you to use (so long as children are not going to lick the finished product). LaCo flux is very good, but you need to wash the item afterwards or in a week it will go green. If the flux burns off, you are too hot. The solder enters the joint by capillary action, and is drawn by the heat so try to heat the 'bottom' of the joint and apply the solder to the 'top'.

It is said that applying correction fluid (tippex) to parts of the item will stop any excess solder you have splashing around from sticking. A neat ring just on the joint, not a solder Niagra Falls, might be important on a sculptural piece.

 

[Jake]

Leaded solder is not allowed in plumbing fittings, that is the only reason why lead free is used.

All good advice but being pedantic the above is a little broad - it's banned for drinking, cooking or bathing water, so leaded can be used for e.g. CH plumbing (and so is widely still available from plumbing suppliers).

 

[Jake]

The problem with soldered joints is that it is very difficult to get a perfectly neat joint, there's always some solder smear on the pipe. Trying to get it off to neaten them up would be very labour intensive. I suppose it depends how much that matters for the effect you are going for. Solder ring fittings are better from that perspective, but the fittings themselves are not as neat as an end feed fitting.

Press fit might be a neater option, but those tend to have very visible branding, at least on the ones I've seen. They aren't as low profile as end feed though, because of the outer bulges forming the inner recesses for the o rings (even more so than solder ring fittings).

 

[Fergie 307]

One easy way to get a neat joint for decorative stuff would be to use a hoop of solder. Clean and flux by putting a bit of flux in the female fitting then push and twist the male to transfer flux without getting it up the male side. Then reassemble with a ring of solder round the male piece, and sitting on the end of the female fitting. Apply heat and you should get a nice neat joint.
Note I'm not suggesting this for anything other than purely decorative work.
You can make solder rings by just winding the solder around a suitable pipe to get a spiral, then cutting through one side to get a series of rings. You might want to try using smaller diameter solder than the fairly thick stuff you get from a plumbers merchant. You can also chamfer the face of the female fitting, so it is effectively countersunk slightly. This will help to prevent solder dribbling down the outside.
To hold pieces in place when working with pipe and fittings an old plumbers trick is to very gently crush the assembled cold joint with the two pieces a little way off where you want it, so it is very slightly oval, then twist it to the correct position, where it will stay whilst you solder it.
I'm with ChaiLatte on heat, if the flux burns it's too hot. It should melt to a clear fluid. And for purely decorative stuff you will get much better results using proper lead solder.
I do loads of work involving soldering on clocks and similar, where really neat joints are essential, unless you want your clock or musical box etc to look like it was repaired by a plumber

 

[Limey Lurker]

For a really neat finish on something purely decorative, put the joiners 'inside' the tube,so the OD is constant throughout the assembly.

 

[Fergie 307]

I suppose it depends what you are looking for.
I see many items now seeming to strive for an industrial look, using steel or copper pipe and fittings.
Doesn't appeal to me, but whatever floats your boat

 

[ChaiLatte]

One easy way to get a neat joint for decorative stuff would be to use a hoop of solder.

The thin solder ring is a good idea for a neat joint.

For surface mount electronics, you can buy solder paste in a syringe. I wonder if that would scale economically to 15mm or 22mm sizes. Looks expensive, but I wonder how many joints you'd get from a 500g tub:

https://www.massupplies.co.uk/product/mas-solder-paste/

 

[Fergie 307]

I use the brazing paste from time to time. Very expensive but is very good for fine stuff.
I have never used the solder version, but agree it would probably give a nice neat joint.

 

[Fergie 307]

For really small stuff you can slice a piece of cored solder to get in effect a tiny solder washer.

 

[Jake]

Given the joints do not need to be perfectly sealed unlike for plumbing, you could use glue rather than solder for end feed fittings, which would make it easy to wipe the joints to get a clean finish.

 

[MeltedEVERYTHING]

All very useful bits of advice gents thanks, but the original question still stands…. Anyone know any good books or sites that gives broad useful advice for starting up… I appreciate the specifics relating to what everyone knows, but as I have zero basics it’s not really helping much …. I need theory, basics and processes in one place so I can fit all your advice into that base knowledge… what I am looking for is that BASE KNOWLEDGE… thanks

 

[bourbon]

You tube is your friend. But please look for soldering rather than brazing

 

[ChaiLatte]

Anyone know any good books or sites that gives broad useful advice for starting up...

Try one or more of these:

https://archive.org/details/brazingsoldering00hobaiala
https://archive.org/details/solderingkinks00dunt
https://archive.org/details/continuing-education-soldering-heathkit_202005
https://archive.org/details/n.-f.-l...yan-brazing-and-soldering-of-metals-ipst-1961
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125000004867
https://archive.org/details/solderingbrazing00joneuoft/page/n5/mode/2up
https://archive.org/details/09solderingandbrazing