Box making hinges ...........

[Phil Pascoe]

http://finedecorativeboxes.cmail20.com/ ... 0C80B74D5E

The Linley smartHinge disgrace is quite interesting.

 

[Doug B]

I read about this a while ago on Instagram & feel very sad for Andrew.

Also proves a brand name doesn’t mean quantity, though snob value is clearly rich pickings..

 

[Glynne]

It’s interesting to see how Andrew’s business has changed over the years.
I spent 3 days with him over 10 years ago before he’d started to run organised courses. My time (one to one) was essentially ad hoc and he was happy to explain / show me how he made and did things. I didn’t make a box during the time as I was more interested in learning as many different techniques, ways of doing things as possible. I made copious notes which I still refer to today.
At that time Andrew’s business was mainly making commission boxes of an unbelievable standard and training was something he wanted to expand into. Equally Andrew was happy to sell any of his stock, lines, bandings, etc but on a casual basis.
I’m just thinking now that the market for top end craftsmanship is clearly on the decline in this specialist area as well as more general furniture so hence the need to expand the training and sales of hinges, lines etc.
Interestingly enough, one of the other top end boxmakers (who makes boxes for Linley) started a hardware business, discontinued it and now seems to be thinking about restarting it.
The cut and thrust of boxmaking, who would have thought of it?

 

[Noel]

Good idea to provide proper links for those not familiar with the situation:

https://www.smartboxmaker.com/linley-facts/

 

[Marineboy]

Linley’s behaviour is no better than you’d expect given his ancestry.

 

[SammyQ]

Commercial thugs at a posh address. Shows to go you doesn't it? Deceit and a consciencectomy, all in the name of Mammon. Disgusting.

Sam, poor, but honest, and sleeps well at night.

 

[OscarG]

Sad to read Andrew's story.

Is it possible their hinge opening to 110 degress (despite not being optimal for reasons Andrew gives) is done intentionally so in the event of any legal action they can say theirs are different?

 

[Tasky]

So aside from very typical BS marketing using cheap knock-off copies of something that has no legal protections in place whatsoever, what is the problem here?

A patent application costs just £280 in the UK.
Yes, a professionally drafted application and full-on enforcement of patent can cost millions, if you're a drugs company, but merely applying for the patent can be enough to establish IP and date.

Yes it sucks donkey balls that it seems he got ripped off, but I have to say it was extreme naivete to expect he wouldn't need a patent - Even the nutters on Dragon's Den tend to get patents for their bizarre 'hotel bath plug protector carry case' inventions. Heck, even a guy I know got multiple patents on the cured meat products he makes in his back garden before going on the show.
The fact that Linley went outside the UK for their hinges suggests that even they expected Crawford had already secured the patent, in the UK at least!

For such a fabulous design, being purchased by boxmakers all over the world including the ones that work for Linley (I assume privately, rather than by Linley directly), surely he has only to sell 11 sets to fund this?
More importantly, if Crawford had anything to substantiate any of his claims, even just the IP rights on the design and particularly about the spoken conversations and open admissions that form a big part of his claims, surely he'd have engaged a legal service of his own by now? Not even Trading Standards?
At £40,000+ potential claim, I would expect at least a no-win/no-fee practitioner would go in for a 25% commission, or something.

End of the day, this is not the woodworking craft where a man's word is his bond, or anything like that... This is business, no different to a street fight, and if you don't protect yourself you will get stabbed in the back.

 

[OscarG]

I once designed a guitar shape, that I hope one day to build and sell, as it's truly unique (or stupid depending on your taste) I looked into protecting the design.

It cost £50 with the Intellectual Property Office which covers the UK only. If my memory is right, you have to pay several hundred euros for EU protection and several thousand for US protection, it soon becomes apparent it's ridiculously expensive to give yourself adequate protection.

I asked a lawyer and he suggested putting all your designs, drawings etc into a self addressed envelope and posting it to yourself recorded delivery then keep it safe and never open it, as proof in event of "who designed it first" row.

I've seen very well known luthiers blatantly rip off Fender, Gibson, BC Rich, Parker but as long as they change it just a tiny little bit they can get away with it. I believe even Fender only have the stratocaster headstock shape covered, everything else is fair game.

My point is if these huge companies can't stop people ripping off their designs, I'm not sure how an individual can.

 

[stuartpaul]

Linley’s behaviour is no better than you’d expect given his ancestry.

Meaning what exactly?

Yes it sucks donkey balls that it seems he got ripped off, but I have to say it was extreme naivete to expect he wouldn't need a patent - Even the nutters on Dragon's Den tend to get patents for their bizarre 'hotel bath plug protector carry case' inventions. Heck, even a guy I know got multiple patents on the cured meat products he makes in his back garden before going on the show.

End of the day, this is not the woodworking craft where a man's word is his bond, or anything like that... This is business, no different to a street fight, and if you don't protect yourself you will get stabbed in the back.

Agree completely, - if you're going to market/sell something unique that others want then you absolutely must protect yourself.

 

[Marineboy]

Linley’s behaviour is no better than you’d expect given his ancestry.

Meaning what exactly?

Yes it sucks donkey balls that it seems he got ripped off, but I have to say it was extreme naivete to expect he wouldn't need a patent - Even the nutters on Dragon's Den tend to get patents for their bizarre 'hotel bath plug protector carry case' inventions. Heck, even a guy I know got multiple patents on the cured meat products he makes in his back garden before going on the show.

End of the day, this is not the woodworking craft where a man's word is his bond, or anything like that... This is business, no different to a street fight, and if you don't protect yourself you will get stabbed in the back.

Agree completely, - if you're going to market/sell something unique that others want then you absolutely must protect yourself.

Son of Princess Margaret. Even by the standards of the royal family an egregious example of a parasitic wastrel.

 

[Tasky]

It cost £50 with the Intellectual Property Office which covers the UK only. If my memory is right, you have to pay several hundred euros for EU protection and several thousand for US protection, it soon becomes apparent it's ridiculously expensive to give yourself adequate protection.

Going all-out like that to cover yourself the world over is indeed expensive, although the idea is that you start off in your base country and then expand the patent as the product gains traction and brings in enough to fund and justify the wider protection.
Unfortunately, the Internet has enabled far faster communication of ideas, these days.

I've seen very well known luthiers blatantly rip off Fender, Gibson, BC Rich, Parker but as long as they change it just a tiny little bit they can get away with it. I believe even Fender only have the stratocaster headstock shape covered, everything else is fair game.

Yep, the more into the piddly little details you get, the more ways around a patent you can find, meaning more regulations and methods for protection, meaning more costs in securing your work, and so goes the cycle.

My point is if these huge companies can't stop people ripping off their designs, I'm not sure how an individual can.

Unless you're pretty lucky, and/or are able to secure intellectual rights to mere ideas, I honestly don't think you can.
Like Alexander Graham Bell, you just have to be first... or like Apple, the one with your name associated with it.

Linley’s behaviour is no better than you’d expect given his ancestry.

Meaning what exactly?

That rather irrelevant element of Crawford's 'facts' did irk. It's like he was expecting Her Majesty herself to come along and spank her errant nephew, or something.

Agree completely, - if you're going to market/sell something unique that others want then you absolutely must protect yourself.

My martial arts instructor was also a researcher of history and took great pains to protect his work, mainly translations of contemporary fight manuals, personal accounts, some poetry and things... but he said it's just like fighting - If you don't defend yourself properly, you will get hit.

 

[powertools]

I think that there is a lot more to this than meets the eye.
I have no doubt that the bloke is passionate about boxes and has decided to have hinges of the highest quality made to his standard in the UK and should be apploreded for that but there is nothing unique about the hinges apart from the quality.
He for reasons we don't know has lost his best customer and has decided to set on a course to trash the quality of their boxes based on the fact that they no longer use his hinges.
I would think that he has far more pressing problems in that he claims to be the box hardware supplier of choice to high end box makers around the world but to my knowledge his made in UK locks have been out of stock for several weeks.

 

[Noel]

Tasky wrote:

My martial arts instructor was also ...................

Nice little drive by.
Must remember that next I need it. : )

 

[MikeG.]

.........Son of Princess Margaret. Even by the standards of the royal family an egregious example of a parasitic wastrel.

I'm no fan of the royals at all (and I've met most of them, which lowered my opinion further), but this (above) is just a slur. Factually wrong, too.

The guy could have sat around and done nothing, living off the family estate, and contributing nothing whatever to the world. Instead he has trained, then used a talent for design, some making skills, and some marketing skills, to go out and actually earn his living by working. In fact, by working with wood, something that many here would give their left arm to do, I'm sure. I take my hat off to anyone who sets up a business working with wood and makes a go of it, and the fact that he has a different heritage from the rest of us should make precisely the same difference as if that heritage was black, Asian, or gay, or if he was disabled. In other words judge people by what they do, not who their parents are.

 

[Noel]

.........Son of Princess Margaret. Even by the standards of the royal family an egregious example of a parasitic wastrel.

I'm no fan of the royals at all (and I've met most of them, which lowered my opinion further), but this (above) is just a slur. Factually wrong, too.

The guy could have sat around and done nothing, living off the family estate, and contributing nothing whatever to the world. Instead he has trained, then used a talent for design, some making skills, and some marketing skills, to go out and actually earn his living by working. In fact, by working with wood, something that many here would give their left arm to do, I'm sure. I take my hat off to anyone who sets up a business working with wood and makes a go of it, and the fact that he has a different heritage from the rest of us should make precisely the same difference as if that heritage was black, Asian, or gay, or if he was disabled. In other words judge people by what they do, not who their parents are.

Being "...... black, Asian, or gay, or if he was disabled" is in my view a great disadvantage in the UK, sadly. Being a royal, wanting for nothing, living in a palace, rich, a title, godson of the Queen, the son of of a royal celebrity photography is an advantage, a massive advantage. There's no comparison.
I don't think Linley has much to do with the company these days, but it's behaviour, if accurate and as outlined by Crawford, is appalling.

 

[MikeG.]

I'm not defending his behaviour. I'm just opposed to attacking people simply because of their heritage/ background, especially on the grounds that they are a "parasitic wastrel" when they are actually earning a living making things.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Surely the argument there is not that what he did or sold (doesn't any more) wasn't good, but that it sold on its provenance? I remember many years ago reading a letter from the wife of a furniture maker who made four poster beds - she said he struggled to sell them for £1500, but Linley was selling them for £7,500.
As an aside, I would think that hinges in their various incarnations are so common now that it would be difficult to make one different enough to trademark or patent?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

.........Son of Princess Margaret. Even by the standards of the royal family an egregious example of a parasitic wastrel.

I'm no fan of the royals at all (and I've met most of them, which lowered my opinion further), but this (above) is just a slur. Factually wrong, too.

The guy could have sat around and done nothing, living off the family estate, and contributing nothing whatever to the world. Instead he has trained, then used a talent for design, some making skills, and some marketing skills, to go out and actually earn his living by working. In fact, by working with wood, something that many here would give their left arm to do, I'm sure. I take my hat off to anyone who sets up a business working with wood and makes a go of it, and the fact that he has a different heritage from the rest of us should make precisely the same difference as if that heritage was black, Asian, or gay, or if he was disabled. In other words judge people by what they do, not who their parents are.

Yep.

The guy had a name and a prestigous position in 'society', which no doubt helped a lot with the marketing, but he had to have stuff to market first - he'd have got nowhere trying to sell any old rubbish. He did the training, learned the skills, built the business from scratch. Give him some credit.

I don't like the way the firm that bears his name has behaved over the box hinge affair, but by all accounts he's not personally involved in that matter.

 

[MikeG.]

Surely the argument there is not that what he did or sold (doesn't any more) wasn't good, but that it sold on its provenance? I remember many years ago reading a letter from the wife of a furniture maker who made four poster beds - she said he struggled to sell them for £1500, but Linley was selling them for £7,500.........

Phil of Philly Planes and this forum sells a marking gauge for £125. Standard Marples marking gauges sell for about one twelfth of that. Should we be criticising Phil for targeting a certain part of the market?

I sold some furniture through Liberty, London, many moons ago. I thought it was really expensive when I sold the first one to them. The buyer rang me up after having it on show for a few weeks and said something like "lots of interest, Mike, but we haven't sold it yet. I think we've got the price wrong". My heart sank, as I was half way through making the next one at that point, and I didn't want to cut the price I got for it. He continued "I'm going to stick £1500 onto the price, and see what happens". He was back within a week ordering the next couple, as he'd not only sold that one at the higher price, but had taken deposits for 2 more . There's nowt so queer as folk.