bike lanes again

[NazNomad]

Very nearly all if not 100% will have been by vehicles that have gone off the road by accident.

Cyclists call that 'pavement driving'

Drivers call it ... crashing!!! :-D

 

[Finial]

"You may think it's ridiculous, but perhaps you forget that a significant number of pedestrians are killed on the pavement every year by drivers ... " Very nearly all if not 100% will have been by vehicles that have gone off the road by accident.

You can guess that, but do you have any information? And is it relevant? people aren't killed by bikes on the pavement at all, or at least very rarely.

The point is that low risk pavement driving is approved, but when it comes to bike riders, people here want them all banned. We even have fools demanding they are banned from the road. Does anyone ask for all drivers to be banned?

 

[Finial]

I didn't say it was ridiculous, I said it was a ridiculous question.

Much like trying to explain this to you, ridiculous.

Go on, try. You can do it. I'm listening.

 

[Bm101]

9 pages of tosh. No Offense intended.
Whats got hold of people?
I drive in central London everyday. Its the daftest place to ride a bike or drive a car going.
Everyday I see cyclists and motorist breaking every rule of the road. Just this morning at 5.30 am I saw a bus driver nearly kill a fella on a bike. Two minutes later I saw the same bus driver have to brake like mad to let a delivery van in. It's madness. This thread is madness.
Every single day I drive a big old renault traffic on the mirrors. Ive regularly had bikes trying to crowd me out at junctions. Im a pretty considerate driver, even I will will lose my cool. Ive had them cutting me up, in the wrong lanes, jumping lights, turning left and im only on my mirrors mind all of a sudden theres some deathwish idiot slapping the side of my van. Yeh mate its my fault. But theres going to be only one loser in the long term. Same for cars. You name it I've seen it. And there's one answer to it.
Take a breath.There's only idiots to blame, not riders or drivers or motorbikes in general.
Whats up with people.
Take a breath, look, take a second. Spot the idiot and steer clear.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"You can guess that, but do you have any information?"
And you presumably know of loads of cases of cyclists being killed by people driving on the pavement intentionally? :?

 

[RogerS]

.... but perhaps you forget that a significant number of pedestrians are killed on the pavement every year by drivers, and it costs a huge amount in repairs. ...

Evidence, please.

 

[RogerS]

....
You may think it's ridiculous, but perhaps you forget that a significant number of pedestrians are killed on the pavement every year by drivers. My point is that people take it for granted that motors will be found on the pavement for the convenience of the drivers, but object when people cycle there to avoid danger.

You are approximately 120 times more likely to be killed on the pavement by a motor vehicle rather than a bike, according to figures I posted up earlier

"*What the available statistics say
Using DFT figures, from 2007-2008, 60.7 pedestrians were killed on the pavement by motor-vehicles, whereas 0.5 were killed on the pavement, by pavement cyclists. This is based on 10% of pedestrian casualties being on the pavement or verge as was the case 2007-2008. The ratio of pedestrians killed on the pavement by motor-vehicles to those killed by cyclists is therefore 121.4:1. The ratio from 1998-2008 is 820.1:3 or 273:1 (uses the same 2007-2008 10% pedestrian casualties figure).
E&OE. "

Just a random google produced the above. Presumably typical and not exceptional.
Killed by drivers on pavements 60.7
Killed by cyclists on pavements 0.5
Fairly uncommon either way but vehicles kill 121 times as many as cyclists, on pavements alone.

Then according to this http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablo ... death-2011 you are 700 times more likely to be killed falling down stairs than by being hit by a cyclist

Sigh...How can I explain this in a simple enough way for you to understand? You can't say that unless you factor in the amount of miles driven by each category. Cycling is 1%. Therefore you need to multiply your figure of 0.5% by 100 to be comparable to the deaths caused by drivers. Are you really that obtuse?

 

[RogerS]

9 pages of tosh. No Offense intended.
Whats got hold of people?
I drive in central London everyday. Its the daftest place to ride a bike or drive a car going.
Everyday I see cyclists and motorist breaking every rule of the road. Just this morning at 5.30 am I saw a bus driver nearly kill a fella on a bike. Two minutes later I saw the same bus driver have to brake like mad to let a delivery van in. It's madness. This thread is madness.
Every single day I drive a big old renault traffic on the mirrors. Ive regularly had bikes trying to crowd me out at junctions. Im a pretty considerate driver, even I will will lose my cool. Ive had them cutting me up, in the wrong lanes, jumping lights, turning left and im only on my mirrors mind all of a sudden theres some deathwish idiot slapping the side of my van. Yeh mate its my fault. But theres going to be only one loser in the long term. Same for cars. You name it I've seen it. And there's one answer to it.
Take a breath.There's only idiots to blame, not riders or drivers or motorbikes in general.
Whats up with people.
Take a breath, look, take a second. Spot the idiot and steer clear.

Well said. Very well said.

 

[Wuffles]

I didn't say it was ridiculous, I said it was a ridiculous question.

Much like trying to explain this to you, ridiculous.

Go on, try. You can do it. I'm listening.

Wasn't directed at you Frasier. Wind your neck in*

*is what someone else might say, not me though, nosiree.

 

[Finial]

"You can guess that, but do you have any information?"
And you presumably know of loads of cases of cyclists being killed by people driving on the pavement intentionally? :?

No I don't. It's you that made the claim about intention, and I was talking about pedestrians.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My mistake. OK, then - Do you know of any pedestrians killed by someone driving on the pavement deliberately? Actually that would be murder, not a driving offence.

 

[Finial]

9 pages of tosh. No Offense intended.
Whats got hold of people?
I drive in central London everyday. Its the daftest place to ride a bike or drive a car going.
Everyday I see cyclists and motorist breaking every rule of the road. Just this morning at 5.30 am I saw a bus driver nearly kill a fella on a bike. Two minutes later I saw the same bus driver have to brake like mad to let a delivery van in. It's madness. This thread is madness.
Every single day I drive a big old renault traffic on the mirrors. Ive regularly had bikes trying to crowd me out at junctions. Im a pretty considerate driver, even I will will lose my cool. Ive had them cutting me up, in the wrong lanes, jumping lights, turning left and im only on my mirrors mind all of a sudden theres some deathwish idiot slapping the side of my van. Yeh mate its my fault. But theres going to be only one loser in the long term. Same for cars. You name it I've seen it. And there's one answer to it.
Take a breath.There's only idiots to blame, not riders or drivers or motorbikes in general.
Whats up with people.
Take a breath, look, take a second. Spot the idiot and steer clear.

Well said. Very well said.

Not really. Bm101 didn't say anything about the solution. I don't usually travel in the rush hour these days, when it's presumably worse, but I don't have any problem at all with the bikes when I do drive in town. Even considerate drivers make mistakes, and clearly bike riders do too. That's why we need cycle tracks isn't it? Because that would be better for everybody. And that's where this thread started, with a comment about poor quality infrastructure. But at last some improvement is beginning in London.

 

[Finial]

My mistake. OK, then - Do you know of any pedestrians killed by someone driving on the pavement deliberately? Actually that would be murder, not a driving offence.

No. I have no information on that. You are probably right that many of the deaths happened when drivers crashed off the road accidentally or in cases such as the bin lorry incident in Scotland. I hope very few were deliberate attacks, though road rage can be an issue. But why do you think people driving deliberately on the pavement would not cause accidents? They cause them on the roads, and I've had to dodge them myself.

 

[Finial]

.... but perhaps you forget that a significant number of pedestrians are killed on the pavement every year by drivers, and it costs a huge amount in repairs. ...

Evidence, please.

You've got the number of incidents from Jacob and the eventual cost of repairing smashed paving is obvious, except that it is often left unrepaired.

 

[Finial]

Charming! But then you don't understand the issues.

Meh!! I understand enough.

I wouldn't know it from your comments. Correct me if I've got it wrong, but you've commented as if people who pay car tax have exclusive rights to the road. You've endorsed foolish comments about the causes of accidents. You've threatened assault, possibly against small children, though I hope you didn't mean that because it will get you in serious trouble. You've shown no recognition that cycling is a legitimate form of transport. You've shown no comprehension of the reasons why people might cycle on the pavement. You've ignored government advice on that issue. You've belittled commenters you disagree with. You've commented as if poor driving is irrelevant to cycling. The reasons to increase walking and cycling seem to have washed right over you. You haven't offered any alternatives that could address those reasons.

 

[Jake]

So after four pages, what have we learned ?

Mile for mile ridden or driven, cyclists are just as likely to kill pedestrians as motorists.

If the situations were reversed then I think people would be shouting for some form of insurance for car drivers. Maybe cycle riders should carry insurance, after all?

How about a more sensible comparison which doesn't dilute the car's impact by dividing the deaths by the extra mph a car has over a bicycle.

Statistics and their creators...

 

[rileytoolworks]

Maybe cycle riders should carry insurance, after all?

Many, including myself, do.

 

[John Brown]

....
You may think it's ridiculous, but perhaps you forget that a significant number of pedestrians are killed on the pavement every year by drivers. My point is that people take it for granted that motors will be found on the pavement for the convenience of the drivers, but object when people cycle there to avoid danger.

You are approximately 120 times more likely to be killed on the pavement by a motor vehicle rather than a bike, according to figures I posted up earlier

"*What the available statistics say
Using DFT figures, from 2007-2008, 60.7 pedestrians were killed on the pavement by motor-vehicles, whereas 0.5 were killed on the pavement, by pavement cyclists. This is based on 10% of pedestrian casualties being on the pavement or verge as was the case 2007-2008. The ratio of pedestrians killed on the pavement by motor-vehicles to those killed by cyclists is therefore 121.4:1. The ratio from 1998-2008 is 820.1:3 or 273:1 (uses the same 2007-2008 10% pedestrian casualties figure).
E&OE. "

Just a random google produced the above. Presumably typical and not exceptional.
Killed by drivers on pavements 60.7
Killed by cyclists on pavements 0.5
Fairly uncommon either way but vehicles kill 121 times as many as cyclists, on pavements alone.

Then according to this http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablo ... death-2011 you are 700 times more likely to be killed falling down stairs than by being hit by a cyclist

Sigh...How can I explain this in a simple enough way for you to understand? You can't say that unless you factor in the amount of miles driven by each category. Cycling is 1%. Therefore you need to multiply your figure of 0.5% by 100 to be comparable to the deaths caused by drivers. Are you really that obtuse?

Just curious here, no axe to grind(either freehand or with a jig), but why is the miles covered metric necessarily more relevant than the time on the road one? How about bollards, or lamp-posts, surely they are far more dangerous according to the accidents-divided-by-miles-travelled formula.

 

[Chippyjoe]

Well my two penneth worth, Some cyclists are morons, some car, bus, lorry etc drivers are morons, so this discussion has no winners.

I think Jacob just likes to pour petrol on these kind of debates, then retires while everyone else "fights" there corner.
People, there are no winners in these type of discussions as there are to many people who will always think they are right.

Probably time for one of the mods to lock this thread, and lets move on. life really is to short.

Right, behind the settee now, so start hurling the abuse lol.

 

[andys wood shed]

Well my two penneth worth, Some cyclists are morons, some car, bus, lorry etc drivers are morons, so this discussion has no winners.

I think Jacob just likes to pour petrol on these kind of debates, then retires while everyone else "fights" there corner.
People, there are no winners in these type of discussions as there are to many people who will always think they are right.

Probably time for one of the mods to lock this thread, and lets move on. life really is to short.

Right, behind the settee now, so start hurling the abuse lol.

Some cyclists are morons due to lack of training

Some car, bus, lorry etc drivers choose to be morons after their training