Best plane for a woman.

[John Brown]

If you'd turned the question on its head, the answer would have been "Amelia Earhart", and we could have all gone back to whatever we were doing.

 

[D_W]

Watch out for the gimmick. Paul's a wrestling promoter, of himself. He's the face, and tool companies are the heel. It's all about verisimilitude.

 

[Mr T]

Watch out for the gimmick. Paul's a wrestling promoter, of himself. He's the face, and tool companies are the heel. It's all about verisimilitude.

I didn't get any of that

Chris

 

[Tasky]

YOU must have missed or not seen/listened to what he says then, on his youtube channel.... Maybe you put the dinner on when he mentions and demonstrates "fighting" only a few videos back.

Can you recall which video?
I don't actually watch that many of them.

The OP specifically said that they tried using duck-boards to get over the height thing. So it isn't that.

There's more to it than just height alone, though. That's almost the same as putting you on stilts.
I have long arms to go with my long legs, and I don't have things like boobs to get in the way, but there are a great many more differences in the structure and dynamics of female musculo-skeletal mechanics. Often these are quite subtle differences but with great effect on outcome, many simply having knock-on effects on other body parts. The knees are a big one, for example, which are affected by the hips and vice versa.

One big aspect is what I'll call muscle bind.
Muscle groups tend to work in complimentary opposition to each other - One side pushes, while the other pulls. When you throw a punch, your right arm goes out while your left arm comes back toward the body. When you draw a bow, the bow arm pushes while the string arm pulls, and the chest muscles spread as the back muscles contract. Stuff like that.

When you plane, you're stood to the side of the wood and both arms are moving in the same direction. As a result, different muscle groups conflict at various points in the stroke and prevent others from behaving complimentarily.
When you punch, your body pivots around the knees and hips, twisting the torso to match the lines of movement. You can't do that with planing, as both arms are essentially following the same single line. The muscles instead bind.

Some people have dismissed the (undeniable) difference in strength as a factor, but haven't yet provided me enough reason to agree with them.

It's a factor, in that men can still use that strength to compensate for lack of technique and push through the muscle bind... but a woman with good technique probably trumps a strong man most of the time. And I bet her planes would be in better condition at the end of it!! :lol:

are we forgetting about the thinly built or poorly coordinated men who can't get it together?

That'd be me on both counts!!

He would always remark about the inability of most of the girls to "generate power", which in baseball is coordinating leg drive, hip turn and a release.

Yup. Sounds a similar example to my 'Chick Punch', with the exact same reasoning behind it.

http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/test/articles_935.shtml

Bookmarked, for detailed attempting later on!
I think I saw a video of his along the same lines, although I was getting concertina shavings no matter how far back I set the cap iron.

Two things - if paul registers folks for several hundred dollars per class, why would he need to sell gear?

If Cosman can sell a flippin' Shooting Board™ for £150 and a branded Jewellers Loupe™ for £50, surely one would be a fool not to jump on that bandwagon?

it would completely ruin his gimmick which is "I'm not selling you anything, buy my video subscription and pay to come to my classes...but that doesn't count as selling you something. Look, I'm not "beholden" to tool companies! Buy my videos".

You don't have to buy his videos either, though.
I haven't paid a single penny for his content (bar my ISP bill) and most of what goes up on WWMC ends up on YouTube for free anyway.
I got given his Working Wood 1 & 2 book for Christmas and found most of it has already been covered in his free videos.

TBH, I don't know how me makes money aside from classes and book sales, unless he still sells some furniture, but plenty of others are doing that and well enough...

re: the hand size, the hand sizes that I've made for other folks have been mostly 3.5 to 3.75, some up to 4. Mine are just over 3 1/2 (and I consider my hands small).

Mine were just over 4 ¼" when I measured. I usually take XXL in motorcycle gloves (if they go that big), which I think is about Size 11 in Army gloves.

I spent some time studying the ladies technique ( a bit like a golf pro studying gold swing) and it seemed to be a problem of just not being able to keep the sole flat on the wood.

Going back to my ramble about muscle bind, for a sec...
Something I found useful at times was 'throwing' the plane in a more sideways motion, while standing more side-on to the wood. It opens up the torso and hips, allowing for better twist and support to the arms.
Not a complete 90º to the planing line, but more like 40-60º to it.

Might be worth playing around with that, seeing if it helps?

With Paul though I just cannot resist taking the Mick from his holier than thou Life style Woodworker thing.

Which I think is fair enough, heh heh!
He is quite a poetic and spiritual person... bordering on Hippy, in some respects. While he doesn't exactly get in your face about his rather definite Christianity, it's obviously a big part of his life and I don't begrudge him whatever makes him happy. He's merely sharing that happiness and it's yours to take or leave. I skip over those parts and get on with the woodwork!

The moment I realised that it wasn't necessary to have a shop stuffed full of expensive machinery, or be able to produce perfect joints immediately. In other words, woodworking was actually accessible for mere peasants such as myself.

It's what makes Sellers a favourite of mine, too. That, and I like the 'working class' feel to some of his stuff.
Cosman can do some good things, but it often seems he is a one-trick dovetailing pony.

As Tasky said though, what is probably different is the technique needed to achieve a good result with that tool - and I think there's been a few good theories about ways that could work effectively, things like making it easier for a female to get their body weight behind the plane rather than just relying on arm muscle, by using a taller bench.

I agree.
Much of our fighty classes with women are about exploring each woman's body mechanics and finding different approaches to making the techniques work for them.
With swords, for example, I'm often too tall to perform the upward stabs and thrusts against my opponents, so rather than perform the technique rote, I throw my back leg outward, which lowers my body and gives me the angle to deliver the attack.

I just don't know enough about planing yet to offer much thought on the solutions.

It occurred to me that these two ladies had not got the same basic "skill level" because they'd not engaged in similar DIY-type activities over the years and so were starting from a lower level of basic readiness.

Transferable skill?
It's worth considering.
My wife was able to plane about as well as me, though and she's hideously better at spinning the nunchaku, despite having no such previous experience.

If you'd turned the question on its head, the answer would have been "Amelia Earhart",

I seem to recall she disappeared without a trace, though, so perhaps not the best after all...?

 

[John Brown]

"I seem to recall she disappeared without a trace, though, so perhaps not the best after all...? "
Behaviour this thread will probably emulate in due course.

 

[D_W]

Tasky - Paul's main revenue generator is probably his subscription service.

Rob has something like that, too. Get a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand people on the hook to pay $10 a month or whatever and you've pretty much got it wrapped up.

Based on the portfolios of the two, I've seen Rob do fine work. I have seen Paul use his name on a piece that went to the white house, but that it sounds like others probably did the bulk of work. I don't think paul is going to make and sell anything and have anyone pay a premium.

Rob has a captive audience for his tools, and he has at least one person on staff making them. It's part of his gimmick (he also has ten kids from what I understand). He doesn't peddle the "pay me 900 pounds to come to my class and don't let anyone tell you that you should waste a couple of hundred pounds on new tools" narrative that paul does.

They're both wonderfully nice guys from what I can tell (I have had conversations with Rob where I was dogging something that he did, but he handled my complaints with class. He is a genuinely nice guy. He could've just fired a salvo back. i haven't talked to paul sellers, but have no reason to. I talked to George Wilson yesterday on the phone. If you have access to a George or Phil Lowe, you don't need to refer to paul....or Rob. that doesn't mean I'm a master woodworker, but I have specific wants and design questions, and i'm not looking for random advice, i'm looking to bounce ideas off of a toolmaker).

At any rate, figuring that you spend your time driving subscribership and setting up classes, why would you get involved with making shoot boards? I'd bet that Rob's employee takes a couple of hours to finish one of those from start to finish, and when Rob is around and not teaching, it appears he makes them to. I don't get the sense that kind of thing (Rob's setup for saws is actually a little station to station factory) is Paul's wheelhouse. It's not mine, either. As soon as I made 5 of them perfectly in a row, I'd be bored.

Tool circuit (TM) here, by the way, now has a shoot board and some fixtures for about 600 bucks, so you're going to have to raise the bar.

You can see the high dollar shoot board that i like (something has to be smaller than about 2" wide for me to actually shoot it, you can just plane to a mark in the vise otherwise). I have taken some private comment flack on youtube over this (and Derek Cohen lined me out on it, too).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWZE4vC8IHY

 

[Tasky]

Behaviour this thread will probably emulate in due course.

How come?
We're all being civil, contributory and mostly on-topic....

Rob has something like that, too. Get a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand people on the hook to pay $10 a month or whatever and you've pretty much got it wrapped up.

I think Rob has the complete portfolio!!
I did notice he started doing Poor Man's videos, where he perfects dovetails without $2,000 worth of handtools, instead using a sharpened screwdriver and an old hacksaw... but that was after heavy criticism and drama on one of his other videos.

I'd be interested to see some of these guys look into the Woman's Plane issue, actually. Certainly if a new design of plane is needed (which I don't believe), they'd surely be well-placed to get one out!!

I have seen Paul use his name on a piece that went to the white house, but that it sounds like others probably did the bulk of work.

He said he put a team together, I think...
It's pretty ugly-looking, though.

He doesn't peddle the "pay me 900 pounds to come to my class and don't let anyone tell you that you should waste a couple of hundred pounds on new tools" narrative that paul does.

I don't even know how much Sellers charges for a class... Mostly it's all about how you can make tools for two quid that "will last you a life time of REAL woodworking".

when Rob is around and not teaching, it appears he makes them to.

But still... £150 for something Rob himself shows you how to make in his own videos???!!!!
I can't even imagine who would actually buy that!!

Tool circuit (TM) here, by the way, now has a shoot board and some fixtures for about 600 bucks, so you're going to have to raise the bar.

.............................................. :shock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWZE4vC8IHY

Oh, that's you, is it?

 

[D_W]

I made the reference about pro wrestling because the youtube stuff is the draw to get you to pay.

In the old days, pro wrestling was on TV to try to get you to go pay for a ticket (PPV and national network contracts changed that).

There is some value in what paul shows. You can work with hand tools. Beyond that, there's nothing unique. You probably wouldn't want to build the clock that he showed, because it's pretty grotesque. A bit of time in learning about design and sourcing more attractive parts, and you could make a much nicer clock, etc.

If I was funneling people toward a paying subscription and 250-900 pound sessions working white pine, I would want to do something to draw them in, too. It's basic business. Youtube provides an avenue for exposure that's cheaper than a magazine add and reaches hundreds of thousands of people if you work the gimmick right.

For example, I can talk about making an infill shooting plane. Do you think many people are going to make one? No, if I wanted to turn ads on and make a draw for my channel, I'd make a book about "easy hand planes" with a bunch of laminated planes, make a few videos, and make sure that the subject appealed to people who may not actually be able to make even those (they pay the same as someone else).

if you're appealing to a limited audience, your classes are like those I linked on the Shenandoah page. The topical material that paul covers is a given for classes like that (they regard those skills as something you should show up with, not an end itself). It excludes beginners, and you can't gimmick it on youtube - at least not with the expectation that it will drive much traffic.

What happens on youtube if you make detailed videos that show more than a simple topic is that you get a lot of one minute watches on ten minute videos. People are looking for production value and entertainment, not the idea that they might forge through something that is difficult for them. This plane in the video was difficult for me - for a master builder, it would've probably been easy, and there would be some fine details on it that would differentiate it from a plane that an amateur made.

 

[D_W]

[

But still... £150 for something Rob himself shows you how to make in his own videos???!!!!
I can't even imagine who would actually buy that!!

That's generally my contention, but there are always people who say they want to do something, but they really just want to buy it. I'm not in that crowd - except I have a problem with buying too many things that I'd like to build, too - admittedly.

Rob's main source of sales is probably captive buyers in classes. if you're sitting by yourself somewhere comparison shopping, you're less likely to buy that stuff. But, I'm sure on the opposite side of the coin that he's had plenty of attorneys and physicians who will get pineappled at him if he shows those tools and then says "hey guys, make your own".

Presumably, the $400-$600 shooting and gadget setups in the US wouldn't sell that well without demonstration, which is a funny thing. Demonstration gets you to believe that you're seeing the competence of the product, but often it's more the demonstrator. WIA and other very high dollar tool festivals here specialize in that kind of thing. Getting you in the mood and showing demonstrations in a context that don't have much to do with your shop.

The typical buyer for all of these "made by other people" tools probably doesn't frequent forums, has more money than time, and is looking for a bit of escapism. I guess I am, too - on all of those fronts, but my escapism is in the satisfaction of making and thinking about the making, figuring it out and taking basic information from other people (e.g., George can tell me how the proportions of a curve, in general, will look good, but he won't trouble me with trying to tell me how to cut it) but not ceding the details to their step by step.

I went through the "buying precision" phase at the beginning like everyone else, but not of things like dovetail markers and shooting boards. It's fun for a little bit, but design, proportion and the gloomy threat of making junk is far more motivating and lasting. Making an iron that is tapered, hollow tapered, in it's length and then tapered by width, and then hardening it in a coffee can forge ..those are my details. I wouldn't figure them out if I ceded them to someone else, and they wouldn't have been suggested. I have learned what difference those kinds of things make over time (ex. forge - heat treating can be done by anyone).

 

[D_W]

I did notice he started doing Poor Man's videos, where he perfects dovetails without $2,000 worth of handtools, instead using a sharpened screwdriver and an old hacksaw... but that was after heavy criticism and drama on one of his other videos.

I'd be interested to see some of these guys look into the Woman's Plane issue, actually. Certainly if a new design of plane is needed (which I don't believe), they'd surely be well-placed to get one out!!

Rob is no dummy - if the market wants it, he'll do it. That "poor man's tools" gimmick sells well. Sometimes it's true (no fit person could match my planing rate - and I am unfit - if they had a bevel up plane and i had a stanley), and sometimes it's not (the router plane that paul made out of a chisel is something that should be cast aside - you can see him struggling with it on pine, it's a worthless endeavor).

That is a gimmick that sells well, though. Make things seem accessible, and a large fraction of customers will be calc 1 washout equivalents (the sort of endless supply and high turnover that you see in intro physics and calculus classes) where the idea of doing it was attractive, but sweating the details of doing anything difficult ends up being a stopping point. Rob is opening his content to a larger market segment. Smart guy (and like I said, a man of principle with lots of kids, and in my experience, a genuinely nice guy who probably doesn't get a fair shake in forum opinion). To borrow the wrestling analysis, I'm always surprised how paul is made to be the face and rob the heel in so many of the debates about "the right teacher". You don't need "the right teacher", you need a personal mentor and a desire to make something good and be able to learn independently and figure things out to some extent. There is plenty of information available to do that. My turning point in going from making rubbish to at least mediocre things at this point was George sending me a message telling me to call him (I didn't solicit his advice) and then giving me a mildly stiff pep talk about "here's what you did wrong, but I think you have enough ability to do it right".

At any rate, I can't imagine what kind of insults you'd be subjected to in the comments on youtube if you suggested there might be a different in outcomes or materials for men vs. women. Too much risk.

Better to play the contrarian ("not beholden to tool dealers") and tell people you have an avenue of hope for them than to divide them at the start.

 

[Tasky]

You probably wouldn't want to build the clock that he showed, because it's pretty grotesque. A bit of time in learning about design and sourcing more attractive parts, and you could make a much nicer clock, etc.

Looking through his website gallery and several threads on here, it seems a lot of people copy his working ideas but put their own spin on the designs. Even I am doing a "Sellers" workbench, but already have different dimensions, layout, a few extras and the like.

If anything, I'd suspect that he has a deal with eBay, to hike up the price of second hand tools!! :lol:

To borrow the wrestling analysis, I'm always surprised how paul is made to be the face and rob the heel in so many of the debates about "the right teacher". You don't need "the right teacher", you need a personal mentor and a desire to make something good and be able to learn independently and figure things out to some extent.

After a certain point you do, yes.
But everyone needs to learn the basics. Like I said, I've seen how some people already move away from the rote practices taught on YouTube and work independently. Anyone worth half their salt will start doing the same when they decide they don't want to make a straight cabinet, but something similar that uses some of the skills they've already learned.

At any rate, I can't imagine what kind of insults you'd be subjected to in the comments on youtube if you suggested there might be a different in outcomes or materials for men vs. women. Too much risk.

But if you can point out the differences, explain why *and* present alternative solutions to the issues - That would win. It's a difference, not a disadvantage and not a divide.

 

[D_W]

He does have quite an effect on used tool prices. Used to be referred to as the Schwarz effect, but now there are a few gurus and any of them can inflict serious damage.

 

[John Brown]

He does have quite an effect on used tool prices. Used to be referred to as the Schwarz effect, but now there are a few gurus and any of them can inflict serious damage.

Do you have any evidence for that?

Even if true, there's a chance those tools get used for woodwork, rather than joining collections.

I have no vested interest here, but I don't understand how a question about planes for women has morphed into a Paul Sellers bashing fest.

 

[Bodgers]

He does have quite an effect on used tool prices. Used to be referred to as the Schwarz effect, but now there are a few gurus and any of them can inflict serious damage.

Do you have any evidence for that?

Even if true, there's a chance those tools get used for woodwork, rather than joining collections.

I have no vested interest here, but I don't understand how a question about planes for women has morphed into a Paul Sellers bashing fest.

It is a fairly well known affect. All circumstantial - it would be hard to prove, but if the prices of things like router planes on eBay are anything to go by, nothing much explains their increases other than the way they have been popularised by online woodworkers...

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

 

[Mr T]

With Paul though I just cannot resist taking the Mick from his holier than thou Life style Woodworker thing.

Which I think is fair enough, heh heh!
He is quite a poetic and spiritual person... bordering on Hippy, in some respects. While he doesn't exactly get in your face about his rather definite Christianity, it's obviously a big part of his life and I don't begrudge him whatever makes him happy. He's merely sharing that happiness and it's yours to take or leave. I skip over those parts and get on with the woodwork!

[/quote]

My holier than thou comment was meant in a none religious way, if that's possible. I did not know that Paul had strong religious convictions.

I have no vested interest here, but I don't understand how a question about planes for women has morphed into a Paul Sellers bashing fest.

I agree, I regret my St Paul quip now.

Chris

 

[Chip shop]

Bit of a curious old thread, this one.

I would have thought the best plane for a woman would be pretty much the same as the best plane for a bloke. Assuming the poor waif has the strength to haul the great lumbering tool out of the cupboard and over to the bench, and then manages to erect a scaff tower so they reach the bench top, I don't really see much of difference.

I'd say a No 4, purely because it's my go-to for tickling stuff up (and what my Dad used).

Women, just like Men, come in all shapes and sizes, strengths and weaknesses, so I think the original question is a little nebulous.

Perhaps "What is the best plane for an individual" is a better question, but if pushed I think I might give the same answer.

 

[D_W]

Curious which people think is harder, wielding a plane or coordinating a glue-up.

I get closer to burst forehead veins and injured joints trying to get glue-ups together than with planing. I'd agree with your comment, it should be the same planes. If there is some sort of difference at the outset in initial ability, it should be closed with some experience.

 

[JimB]

...and now for the downtrodden lefthander :wink:

 

[D_W]

He does have quite an effect on used tool prices. Used to be referred to as the Schwarz effect, but now there are a few gurus and any of them can inflict serious damage.

Do you have any evidence for that?

Even if true, there's a chance those tools get used for woodwork, rather than joining collections.

I have no vested interest here, but I don't understand how a question about planes for women has morphed into a Paul Sellers bashing fest.

router planes.

I can recall Chris Schwarz before paul doing the same with miter boxes (OK, I'll admit I read little of Chris Schwarz, so I don't know what else he might've tripped - but the miter box effect was spectacular. Boxes too large to be considered worth shipping were going for $275 within a week or two after he described them as being indispensable, or whatever terminology he used).

Thanks to paul (I'll give him credit on this one), i was able to buy a millers falls router a decade ago for about $25 or $40 or something (can't remember the exact figure) and re-sell a couple of weeks ago for $85.

 

[D_W]

...and now for the downtrodden lefthander :wink:

they need the stanley adapter.