Best Dust/Chip extractors for small workshop - Advice Please

[mr.alan.]

Hi Folks, Looking for advice on buying a Dust/chip extractor and Air Filter.

I have my garage converted to a workshop - its approx 16' x 14' and ceiling height around 8' . Machinery I have Planer Thicknessser, Wadkin Panel Saw, Bandsaw, Lathe, Also be adding small spindle moulder or Router table, Hand tools - Sanders, Router, all the usual. Anyhow I am looking to keep the workshop as dust free as possible, but hopefully with the smallest Dust/air filters available . I was looking at the following
Air Filters
Jet AFS -500 cost £239
RP AC400 £179

Dust Extractors
Woodrstar DC04 £100
RP DX1000 £139
RP RSDE1 £200
Clarke CD E35B £155

So, anyone who has experience with any of the above - what do you think? Or anyone out there who would recommend something different than what I have mentioned. As I say, I want to try and get the workshop as dust for as possible- but equally I have only little space . Look forward to your reply Thanks

 

[woodpig]

I have the RP AC400 and it seems to work pretty well at keeping the dust down and isn't too noisy.

I also have the RP RSDE1 and although it's got good suction it's very noisy and I don't much like the 4" hose size, I've adapted it to 2.5". Judging by the one we have at my WT club the CamVac's (also sold by Record) are very much quieter. Knowing what I do now I'd get a CamVac with the 2.5" inlet.

My workshop is 5m x 3m.

 

[mr.alan.]

Thanks for the quick reply woodpig - I had a quick look at the CamVac before on the web - will go back and have a read about them now

 

[AJB Temple]

I have similar dilemma and was going to post as well. Things like a planer /thicknesser produce high volume chips, bandsaws and such like do not generate great volume, whereas other tools like sanders, or sanding off a lathe, produce fine dust which is hazardous. MDF machining produces fine particles, possibly below 1 micron (but I don't use MDF much) and teh heat from machining produces hazardous vapour apparently as well. It is therefore worth thinking it through properly and only buying once.

I have an old multico triple filter fine dust collector (along with six small roof mounted extractors), but I am now considering the Axminster 1hp cyclone with hepa filter (599 less some discount) or the 2hp non cyclone trade extractor with a much larger hepa filter at £499. The latter has a higher flow rate at 175mm pipe size.

It seems that including pipework, adaptors etc, a fair investment is needed to deal with dust extraction properly.

I will be very interested too in what the experts here suggest.

Received wisdom seems to be that a cyclone system is best, with as far as possible a large diameter fixed pipe system.

 

[PAC1]

If you want to be dust free you probably need to increase the budget. The Planer/thicknesser, panel saw and spindle each need around 750 to 1000 cfm and 150mm ductwork to achieve dust free. As an example the Woorstar you mentioned will achieve a theoretical 106 cfm. A tenth of what you need. But you will loose a third over the ducting so say 70cfm a tenth of the minimum needed.
You probably need to be looking at extractors with 1000 to 2000 cfm at 150mm or 200mm duct inlet.
The good news is that if you get something that extracts the vast majority of the dust you can take a different view of air cleaners. Since I upgraded my system to achieve 750cfm I have rarely switched on the air cleaner.
I went with the Jet Vortex system with 1 micron filter but built it a shed outside. Jet are about to launch a Cyclone system in the UK that looks very good.

 

[mr.alan.]

If you want to be dust free you probably need to increase the budget. The Planer/thicknesser, panel saw and spindle each need around 750 to 1000 cfm and 150mm ductwork to achieve dust free. As an example the Woorstar you mentioned will achieve a theoretical 106 cfm. A tenth of what you need. But you will loose a third over the ducting so say 70cfm a tenth of the minimum needed.
You probably need to be looking at extractors with 1000 to 2000 cfm at 150mm or 200mm duct inlet.
The good news is that if you get something that extracts the vast majority of the dust you can take a different view of air cleaners. Since I upgraded my system to achieve 750cfm I have rarely switched on the air cleaner.
I went with the Jet Vortex system with 1 micron filter but built it a shed outside. Jet are about to launch a Cyclone system in the UK that looks very good.

Thanks Pac1 - Wow - I didn't realise choosing the right Extractor is quite scientific - all makes sense. So what you are saying - I think - I would be able to forget about the Air Filter and use the money I was going to spend on that- towards a better Dust/Chip extractor, as that should do the job ? Yes I have been gleaning the net and it seems the cyclone extractors are the way forward. The other thing I should have mentioned - I will be using the extractor - at each station only- I won't be having ducting everywhere- basically what ever I am machining - I will move the extractor to that machine- another reason I want a small extractor - so it is portable. As AJB pointed out - and I should have - the materials I will using is just about everything - from hardwoods , Chipboard and the dreaded MDF. I will keep a eye out for the new extractor you mentioned come from Jet. Thats again

 

[beech1948]

My workshop is long and narrow.....36x14 with a 9'6" ceiling.

I have 2x DX4000...one at each end, both in sound deadening boxes I made and both now with a Thein separator on top of the sound deadening box.

They work well as the DX4000 provides good suction.

I have a Trend AF30 for power tools and a workshop made ceiling air cleaner.

This set up has taken me 2.5yrs to put together.

It seems to work well. The only problems are:-
1) The SMS is still too dusty and needs an all enveloping shroud like dust collection box and its own DC.....probably be another Trend AF30
2) DC is too noisy as I get tired of wearing a set of cans on my ears all day so the plan is this summer to build 2 outside structures as leanto's to house the 2xDX4000s as well as a new larger compressor.

Looking back on this journey I think I would not use these DC machines again but would buy a 3hp dual bag LPHV system, add some dust canisters to the tops to replace the bags and keep the Trend AF30s and put it all in an external leanto.

Dust levels are now fairly good and I seldom need to wear my 3M 7500 face mask except when I have to use MDF for built ins.

I have considered buying a Diplos air particle meter to check air quality buts its a bit to expensive at present unless I can get one in the US.

Al

 

[PAC1]

Mr Alan that was the unscientific version. If you want to see the science read Bill Pentz website http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
The problem with a machine you move around is first the size of hose you use. Most people use 100mm hose which restricts the flow and you cannot achieve the necessary cfm. The second problem is that your recirculating the air which will have been filtered to say 1 micron. So you will be breathing air that has very fine dust in it. If you read Bill's pages you will see it is the fine dust that you should be really frightened of. The large lumps we can chew and spit out. The very fine stuff less than 1 micron is the killer.
An air cleaner helps but is not the cure as you are probably stood between it and your extractor so the air you breath is from the extractor not the air cleaner.
Whilst the jet cyclone will be portable it is not small

 

[PAC1]

Al
You probably do not need a dust meter. At the end of the day grab a torch switch the lights off in your workshop and then shine the torch across the shop.

 

[sitefive]

why not an used machine? I picked up record power cx2600 off fleabay a few months ago for £50. cracking machine, £170 when new.

 

[sitefive]

why not an used machine? I picked up record power cx2600 off fleabay a few months ago for £50. cracking machine, £170 when new.

 

[Wizard9999]

I am in the process of upgrading my dust collection as well, based on the 3hp SIP chip extractor running through a super dust deputy size cyclone. This will be fixed in place (the motor is already 2m up on the wall) with spiral ducting (probably 125mm as I need to balance cost with efficiency). Without doubt 150mm is better than 125mm, but even the step up from 100mm to 125mm gives a big improvement in airflow. This YouTube video is not the sexiest you will see, but gives some good insight into the impact of the system you use on the airflow.

EDIT: you should probably watch both videos in the series:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kzvnU3qwrvk
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QxzTCzNnFUU
For me one highlight is the airflow increase just from the change to 125mm hose from 100mm, in this chap's case up from 551cfm to 680cfm.

One disadvantage of moving the extractor is that you will use the flexible ducting which, if I understand correctly, results in much more resistance to airflow than the smooth interior of spiral metal or fixed plastic ducting. You will end up with a flexible hose long enough to deal with the least accessible machine, so in other cases the air will be flowing through more hose than it needs to.

The part I am now struggling to get to grips with is post cyclone filtration. The dust bag type filter that comes with the SIP is as good as useless so my plan was to build a filter box and buy an appropriate filter. But this is proving a minefield as you need to balance filter efficiency with reduction in airflow in the system (generally the greater the efficiency the greater the reduction in air flow) and consider the dust holding capacity of the filter. Yet to get to an answer on this one.

Terry.

 

[PAC1]

Terry
If the cyclone works very little get beyond it. However you really need a good canister type filter 0.5 mu or less. The problem is the fine filters reduce the suck. Or extract to the outside then your Sipp sack filter is fine.

You are right the flexi hoses cause turbulence so reducing air flow. You can get reasonably smooth flexi hose to reduce turbulence. But it is expensive and not that flexi. I feel like I have wrestled a snake every time I move mine.

 

[Wizard9999]

Yes, the canister filters are the obvious answer, but just because of the specifics of the corner this is located in it is not the ideal fit for me, so I was hoping to find a different solution. However, I have started to think I may need to find a way to make it work.

I find filter efficiency an annoying topic. The likes of Axminster and Record Power do not help us, they make statements like 'this is a 1 micron filter', when what we need to know is what proportion of particles of particular sizes are collected and what is let through. Axminster seem to quote this for Jet canisters but not their own. This is silly because there are standard gradings for filter efficiency. I really want to get to F9 (one level below HEPA H10), at this level as I understand it the filter will retain 95% of 0.4 micron size particles. This compares to a quoted 86% of 0.5 micron particles for the better of the two Jet canisters Axminster sell (equivalent to somewhere between F7 and F8 I believe).

Terry.

 

[PAC1]

Terry. It is frustrating. It should not be given that the latest regulations require you to know that you have taken all reasonable steps. Yet we cannot get a straight answer to how much the filter will trap. Unless you get a professionally designed system it is difficult to know. Most machines and the preferred duct size of 100mm or 63mm is totally inadequate for the cfm needed

 

[beech1948]

why not an used machine? I picked up record power cx2600 off fleabay a few months ago for £50. cracking machine, £170 when new.

Because a CX2600 will not produce enough air flow to be useful. It is underpowered, uses a coarse upper bag and is inefficient.

The real issue is that you need around 2000 m3 per hour through the DC or more. Most sellers deliberately overestimate or obscure the real low level performance of there offering.
Al

 

[beech1948]

A way to proceed, and I will be doing this next year, is to first set some goals, then go to people who are not part of the ignorant selling of woodworking DC. I am sorry to be so scathing but my experience has been one of abysmal service from these supposed DC experts.

Bill Pentz is often quoted but even his site is a confused minefield of information.

I have set my goals at capture of particles of 0.3 micron or larger.

Two systems one for particles one for shavings or if they are combines then a two stage system including a drop box of some type.

The people I will approach will all be in the filter manufacturing business as they can articulate the size, speed, air flow, resistance and cleaning of the filters. I have found a company in Newbury and one in Amesbury who produce Torit style filters that can be stacked under the DC outlet and be terminsted in a small box for any remaining small size dust. These filters are easy to find in the US but damned hard here in the UK and also are quite a bit more expensive than the US.

My other thought is to use an old 5hp motor I have with a 16" impeller. The isssue is the design and manufacture of the impeller.

It seems in the UK the mechanical construction bits are the issue and not the science.

 

[Adam9453]

I spoke to this company
http://www.c-airfiltration.co.uk/air-fi ... vices.html
today and they seem very knowledgeable and offered sound advice without trying to sell me stuff that was unnecessary.
I plan to setup my extraction much like beech plans in terms of goals.
I expect I will use a 1000cfm dust extractor, separate cyclone separator, 150mm pipework plus a second stage filtration on the output of the dust extractor to further filter the output down to an acceptable level (hopefully 0.3 micron or better).
The main issue I see is people try and find a silver bullet to dust extraction (like many other things) whereas if you think of a dust extractor as a sieve then it makes the idea much more tangible.
If the sieve is too fine then the large particles will just block it instantly. Therefore what you want to achieve is a system which collects the big lumpy stuff (rather than trying to 'filter' it), then 1st filter stage takes out the 'largish' dust (say 1-10 micron for example), then the second filter stage filters that output to remove the very fine dust (under 1 micron). This should leave you with lovely clean air.
As others have said, shining a torch across a dark workshop is great for checking how effective your DE actually is.

 

[woodpig]

Where I used to work they had a very large dust extraction system that culminated in a unit that was at least 6' wide 4' deep and 8' high. It served a large number of different machines anything up to 60' away and used steel ducting 3" in diameter. I was impressed with the suction even at the furthest gate on the system. I'm therefore wondering why some of you are using 6" diameter pipe work? I should add the system above was designed specifically for the workspace and machines before the building even went up.

 

[cutting42]

A very timely thread as I am building my workshop currently similar size to the OP at 18 x 12. I have a DX5000 and 3" plumbed system currently but would like to upgrade to a HVLP system and big bore extraction piping and will probably sell the DX5000. I don't want anything huge otherwise the Axminster T-2000CK would be very tempting, it just takes up too much space at 1.3M x 1.1M. I could possibly move some or all of an extractor outside but would need to build a lean to for it. I guess the particle size restriction is less important then.