"Best" compound for leather strop?

[Jacob]

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Two main questions remain:

1) How to sort out when to sharpen and when to hone; and when does honing become in reality sharpening?

It's the same thing, though "honing" seems to mean taking it a step further, on to finer stone or by stropping with or without compo such as Autosol.

2) Choosing the "right" bevel angles; inner as well as outer; and what angles?

If in doubt; 30º. Then with experience you investigate variations as the need occurs.

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There seems to be a general recommendation to strop/hone as often as possible to keep a good edge,

Absolutely. Sharpen "a little and often". No sense in working with a blunt tool.

with sharpening avoided unless the edge becomes over-honed - rounded over too much. But resharpening too seems to consist of just enough rubbing the whole bevel to remove the honed-roundover. Many start this resharpening at 8000 grit, which seems to make it almost honing

Simple - don't round them over. Sharpen them at your chosen angle and do not lift the handle. Helps to do the opposite and to dip the handle and effectively "round under". Whatever grit you use - if a burr doesn't come up quickly go to a coarser one

Some carvers claim that resharpening can be avoided for months

Poor things! Modern sharpening tends to be over-thought and tedious so you can understand them wanting to postpone it. But working with blunt tools is very silly.

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PS Honing compound colours - there seems to be a very wide range of grits used in, for example, green compounds from different makers - anything from 9 - 0.5 microns. Can the colours of such compounds ever be trusted or is it not best to discover the actual grit size, whatever the colour it is?

Over thinking. A lot of these things are imported from engineering and not really needed by woodworkers. Woodwork grades are just coarse, medium, fine. Or finer, whatever's lying about etc etc

 

[Jacob]

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... After all, overthinking can be pared down to essential thinking;

It never dies. It's self propagating and modern sharpening has grown into something like SteamPunk.
The trouble with their "good ideas" and other details is that once they've got into print they tend to hang around forever. Unfortunately nobody seems to have bothered to written step by step details of how to sharpen the "traditional" way, beyond saying grind at 25º hone at 30º, which is good advice for someone with no idea at all. The assumption then is that you'll pick it up and work it out, as time goes by.

but underthinking might mean paring one's fingers off.

Yes but you'll only do it once!

 

[Eshmiel]

There are habitual under-thinkers about. I have seen some with not just one or two fingers missing but several! In some cases there is a hand gone whilst other minimal thinkers are now dust, ashes or worm fud.

Many use USA table saws, for example, no matter how many times you show them the "accident" stats or the hospital gives them another bill requiring the sale of a child to organ harvesters or a lifetime debt of $1,000,000. All they had to do was think about a riving knife, a guard, a feather board, a proper push stick, a real fence and a motor brake. Oh, and not watching cowboy movies or them with that Willis bloke in 'em. (No one thinks at all in them).

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30 degrees for a carving chisel! I have reported you to the Pye man for heresy!

 

[Jacob]

There are habitual under-thinkers about. I have seen some with not just one or two fingers missing but several! In some cases there is a hand gone whilst other minimal thinkers are now dust, ashes or worm fud.

Yebbut not from bad sharpening practice! The odd little cut perhaps

Many use USA table saws, for example, no matter how many times you show them the "accident" stats or the hospital gives them another bill requiring the sale of a child to organ harvesters or a lifetime debt of $1,000,000. All they had to do was think about a riving knife, a guard, a feather board, a proper push stick, a real fence and a motor brake. Oh, and not watching cowboy movies or them with that Willis bloke in 'em. (No one thinks at all in them).

Agree

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30 degrees for a carving chisel! I have reported you to the Pye man for heresy!

Depends on what you are carving. There's probably a detailed chart somewhere of cutting angles and grit sizes for different materials, but if you find it just ignore it!

 

[johnnyb]

Try and lightly push a carving tool and adjust the angle until it bites. This will inform you of what the cut angle is at the minute. If its to high it will be restrictive. Adam w believed in no inside bevel and he was definitely a good carver so nothing should be taken as dogma here. A well shaped and sharpened gouge will only need maintenance but I reckon if you've not sharpened it then maintenance could result in issues. Guys buying Chris pyes old gouges may be in for a surprise!

 

[Chubber]

I have seen a US carvery who put a final polish on his tools with a buffing wheel and compound.
Has anyone any observations on this?

 

[Eshmiel]

I have seen a US carvery who put a final polish on his tools with a buffing wheel and compound.
Has anyone any observations on this?

There was a brouhaha some time ago in the US forums concerning a procedure named "unicorn sharpening" that involved a final stage for any sharp edge, using a buffing wheel to impart a final resilience to a shaped-sharpened-stropped edge of the usual final scary- sharpness.

The idea was to give the sharp edge a short taste of the buffing compound at a very low angle to achieve a microscopic round-over (one that could only be detected with a microscope, which they did, with published before and after pics). The round-over gave a final linearity to the sharp edge, scrubbing away microscopic jags left by even that final strop. This didn't make the edge sharper (or duller) but gave the edge more resilience, with less microscopic stress points at those now-gone teeny jags where the edge begins to fracture or bend in use.

The evidence of the effect of this final buffing (those microscope pics) was compelling, as were reports from many woodworkers of good reputation that their edges did seem to last longer. Another claimed benefit was that even lesser-steels benefitted from this final buff, as the inferior steel with an unjagged/smoothed edge was also more resilient. (There was a limit, though - cheese metal is never going to get sharp in the first place).

During the discussion, many carvers said that this was old news to them, as they always gave their gouges a final buff after, or in place of, the hand-honing. The trick is to make it a very short buff and to use a shallow angle. The idea is to take only those last teeny jags off and the make the edge as linear as possible without the teeny round-over resulting interfering with the ability of the edge to cut wood.

 

[Cobbs]

I have seen a US carvery who put a final polish on his tools with a buffing wheel and compound.
Has anyone any observations on this?

I tried that myself many years ago and soon gave up on it - in effect, you're increasing the sharpening angle, which in my opinion is no good thing. Also, why on earth would you intentionally round a bevel? Keep it simple.

 

[Eshmiel]

I tried that myself many years ago and soon gave up on it - in effect, you're increasing the sharpening angle, which in my opinion is no good thing. Also, why on earth would you intentionally round a bevel? Keep it simple.

Unicorn (see above) is why. Carvers already hone every five minutes so anything that reduces the need to every 30 minutes might be welcome to some of 'em. They could be on piecework!

Best to ask the carvers who do it, the buffing. They may know something that you and I don't. Where are they all, eh, eh?

I did buff a number of my cabinet-making chisels to see if it made their sharp last longer. But I'm an amateur so a particular chisel tends to get used infrequently. Also, I took up spoon carving and such for the last year so the cabinet-making chisels are used even less, as I am now knifing and chopping. I did notice, though, that the unicorn buffing application didn't dull me cabinet-making chisels one whit from their scary-sharp, even after a fair amount of paring and even a chop or fifty.

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Elsewhere there are opinions that scary-sharp is over the top. I know two carpenters who sneer at such a thing, relying on their grandad's dished oilstone of 34 grit to keep their chisel cutting (sort of). However, using a scary-sharp edge after making do with the less-than-scary is like going from a Morris Minor to a Maserati. I know, I know - Morris minors cost less and don't break down as often as Masers.

Master Pye suggests that the scaryest of scary-sharp is necessary for the best carving experience. I believe him. Am I just a dafty, then?

 

[Jacob]

Carvers already hone every five minutes so anything that reduces the need to every 30 minutes might be welcome to some of 'em. They could be on piecework!

Doesn't necessarily follow that there is any time saving. In fact little sharpening sessions make a nice little break which hardly delays your work at all and more likely will speed it up, thanks to the sharper blades.

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Master Pye suggests that the scaryest of scary-sharp is necessary for the best carving experience. I believe him. Am I just a dafty, then?

Then you have to ask how they managed in the bad old days, and why it's taken them several thousand years of carving to discover the magic of modern scary/scary sharpening.

 

[Eshmiel]

Then you have to ask how they managed in the bad old days, and why it's taken them several thousand years of carving to discover the magic of modern scary/scary sharpening.

Scary sharp means "very sharp indeed", not "produced by a modern technique and technology", although some adopt the latter meaning.

I believe that Mr Pye uses fairly old fashioned methods albeit with the occasional use of a grinder. Otherwise he's on the stones of Arkansas (8000 grit his usual finishing stone for the sharpening) and perhaps even an oilstone for initial shaping-sharpening. Nevertheless, he devotes a lot of time to insisting that a gouge as sharp as you can get it, frequently honed to keep it that way, is essential.

Looking at the works of the Old Master of carving, I doubt they had gouges that were just sharpened on the cathedral doorstep, despite the rumours (AKA made-up-stuff). Those cuts are very detailed, precise & clean. There are still some very fine grade European and even the odd British sharpening stones about, although the British ones seem to be rare beasts now.

Observe the detail of older carving from, say, Elizabethan times and the cuts do look rough. Wooden sculpture before that era is fairly rare, although some cathedrals have some - if that Henry didn't have it burnt. It would be interesting to have a close look at the tool marks. Heres' two pics of a misericord and a summick in Tewkesbury cathedral that I took some years ago. I know they've suffered the ravages of time but the cuts don't look that clean and precise, eh?

On the other hand, some of the C15th century German carvers produced absolutely astonishing detail and ultra-clean drapery, skin and similar. No cathedral doorsteps for them either methinks.