Cozzer
Established Member
Just as the question.
In the UK, there's red, there's green....apart from the obvious, is there a difference?!
In the UK, there's red, there's green....apart from the obvious, is there a difference?!
"Best" compound for leather strop?
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Blackswanwood
Still Learning
Yes, they vary in coarseness. I use green for carving tools, chisels and plane blades.
https://www.cooksongold.com/downloads/files/Polishing-Compound-Chart.pdf
https://www.cooksongold.com/downloads/files/Polishing-Compound-Chart.pdf
mrpercysnodgrass
Established Member
silverline do a good range of buffing soaps.
https://www.silverlinetools.com/en-GB/Product/ProductDetail?ModelName=107874
https://www.silverlinetools.com/en-GB/Product/ProductDetail?ModelName=107874
user 42596
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I only ever use Autosol metal polish, bought a tube about 20 years ago and it's still going. Leaves a lovely edge.
what I take from that chart is don't use red in the work-shop only the jewelry-shop.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Autosol, or any metal polish is good.
Personnally, I've put leather on both sides of my strop and use green on one side and red (rouge) on the other. Green is my general go to stropping compound but when I really want to push the boat out, I'll flip the strop over and give some strokes on the red side after the green.
Recently I've started using carving tools more and made up a second strop with yellow compound on one side and pink on the other. If I've got an old gouge that needs more than a simple buff up of the edge, I'll work through the compounds (Yellow -> Green -> Pink -> Red) the same way I would go through the grits with sharpening stones. The advantage with the compounds being that I can apply them to leather and bend the leather around formers to match the gouge profile.
I also found this Axminster chart useful:
Recently I've started using carving tools more and made up a second strop with yellow compound on one side and pink on the other. If I've got an old gouge that needs more than a simple buff up of the edge, I'll work through the compounds (Yellow -> Green -> Pink -> Red) the same way I would go through the grits with sharpening stones. The advantage with the compounds being that I can apply them to leather and bend the leather around formers to match the gouge profile.
I also found this Axminster chart useful:
Guys into sharpening knives often mention "flitz".
I assume because it's American and available to a lot of the folks writing on the internet.
It stinks, and seems similar to autosol.
I assume because it's American and available to a lot of the folks writing on the internet.
It stinks, and seems similar to autosol.
Cozzer
Established Member
Thanks, Jacob...
Is it simply a case of rubbing a quick squeeze of it on to the leather?
On one of the now defunct Knife Forums, many members used to recommend the Blue stuff.
Affectionately called Smurf Poo!
https://woodlandcraftsupplies.co.uk/products/sorby-honing-compound
Edit:
Affectionately called Smurf Poo!
https://woodlandcraftsupplies.co.uk/products/sorby-honing-compound
Edit:
johnnyb
Established Member
Being really old school I do love tallow then autosol on leather. Oil works as well. Anything to keep the autosol from going dry and falling off. Tallow is available from stained glass supplies as its a rather wonderful lead flux. Strangely it's in the form of candles but with no wick! It's advantage is its harmless and never goes hard. Neatsfoot oil is good to. This is a strange one that's made from the legs of cattle. Used on leather as it doesn't set or congeal(apparently a unique property that allows cattles feet to not freeze....or something)
Autosol is quite fine as well.(1 micron)
Autosol is quite fine as well.(1 micron)
I've found tallow to be the best lubricant for the bottom of wooden planes. I read somewhere that its years of tallow application that has turned old wooden planes black. That made me curious so I got some (Toolstation sell it) and gave it a try. It works really well. It lubricates really nicely, and sticks to the wood well so doesn't wear off quickly like wax can. So I'm interested to see another use for it.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Just smear it on. Leave it there when you finished and just spit on it next time. Or something like that - it's not critical there are no magic formulae!
What's really good for a polished and very sharp bevel is a disc of mdf on my lathe just turning at a lowish speed. Smear of Autosol on the face and as you use it it gets sort of embedded. Half round the edge of the disc and it'll do inside edge of gouges. It takes just a few seconds to shine up an already sharp blade, plane, chisel or gouge, and make it super sharp.
Plane soles wood or metal a smear of candle wax. Just a quick squiggle. It can be transformative and dramatically improves the action. One candle lasts for years.
Wooden planes always rubbed over with linseed oil, whenever you feel like it.
Cozzer
Established Member
I have one of my bench grinders permanently set up with a felt wheel and a mop that runs in reverse because I use them for other metal-based projects. I will use green on these. It's a trade-off when polishing/honing an edge on blades because ideally, as Jacob said, you would want a slower speed and don't press too hard. The paste or abrasive wax will do all the work. The MDF on the lathe is a tried and tested method that won't 'give' so it will not curve over the edges which, if you press too hard on a felt wheel, it will round them over and does take a little more (just a little) skill to use. On a strop, my preference and most used method, I use Autosol and strop little and often.
Used to be to go to flux for lead filling on car bodies. Haven't done any for years so not sure if there is something else now.
stuckinthemud
Established Member
Another vote for Autosol, cream NOT liquid - put liquid on a buffing wheel and you’ll find out how I know this…,
Eshmiel
Established Member
Being on the cusp of moving from spoon & bowl carving to relief carving, the need to better understand the mechanics of gouge edges & bevels, along with their commissioning and sharpening/honing, has arisen. I've been watching the recently made-free Chris Pye YouTube videos on these and other relief carving tool info, which is a model of clarity, unlike much YouTube woodworking stuff one could mention. 
Two main questions remain:
1) How to sort out when to sharpen and when to hone; and when does honing become in reality sharpening?
2) Choosing the "right" bevel angles; inner as well as outer; and what angles?
Chris Pye recommends inner Plus outer bevels so as to make a strong but sharp edge that'll bite when the gouge is applied at an angle low enough to have the blade grasping hand fully resting on the workpiece or bench, for best control. He seems to use 15 degree outer bevels with a 5 - 10 degree inner bevel for a 20 - 25 degree cutting edge (depending on how tough the wood is he's going to carve). But every other carver I've come across in vids and websites seems to be content to use the 25 degree factory-grind out-cannel bevel only. One or two (e.g. Mary May) mention the possibility of an inner bevel - but basically to have it only when the gouge is cutting upside down, rather than for the Pye reason.
There seems to be a general recommendation to strop/hone as often as possible to keep a good edge, with sharpening avoided unless the edge becomes over-honed - rounded over too much. But resharpening too seems to consist of just enough rubbing the whole bevel to remove the honed-roundover. Many start this resharpening at 8000 grit, which seems to make it almost honing .... ? Some carvers claim that resharpening can be avoided for months if the stropping is done very carefully (no tipping up the chisel at the end of the strop-back stroke and no use of easily-depressed stropping surfaces such as a soft/thick leather).
So - experienced carvers .... any advice concerning the above 1) & 2) questions?
PS Honing compound colours - there seems to be a very wide range of grits used in, for example, green compounds from different makers - anything from 9 - 0.5 microns. Can the colours of such compounds ever be trusted or is it not best to discover the actual grit size, whatever the colour it is?
Two main questions remain:
1) How to sort out when to sharpen and when to hone; and when does honing become in reality sharpening?
2) Choosing the "right" bevel angles; inner as well as outer; and what angles?
Chris Pye recommends inner Plus outer bevels so as to make a strong but sharp edge that'll bite when the gouge is applied at an angle low enough to have the blade grasping hand fully resting on the workpiece or bench, for best control. He seems to use 15 degree outer bevels with a 5 - 10 degree inner bevel for a 20 - 25 degree cutting edge (depending on how tough the wood is he's going to carve). But every other carver I've come across in vids and websites seems to be content to use the 25 degree factory-grind out-cannel bevel only. One or two (e.g. Mary May) mention the possibility of an inner bevel - but basically to have it only when the gouge is cutting upside down, rather than for the Pye reason.
There seems to be a general recommendation to strop/hone as often as possible to keep a good edge, with sharpening avoided unless the edge becomes over-honed - rounded over too much. But resharpening too seems to consist of just enough rubbing the whole bevel to remove the honed-roundover. Many start this resharpening at 8000 grit, which seems to make it almost honing .... ? Some carvers claim that resharpening can be avoided for months if the stropping is done very carefully (no tipping up the chisel at the end of the strop-back stroke and no use of easily-depressed stropping surfaces such as a soft/thick leather).
So - experienced carvers .... any advice concerning the above 1) & 2) questions?
PS Honing compound colours - there seems to be a very wide range of grits used in, for example, green compounds from different makers - anything from 9 - 0.5 microns. Can the colours of such compounds ever be trusted or is it not best to discover the actual grit size, whatever the colour it is?
user 42596
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Don't over-think it. Basic sharpening as per Chris Pye and you won't go far wrong. Internal bevels on gouges are almost impossible to avoid in any case, especially with any kind of front bend, but they only need to be tiny and will happen naturally when removing the burr from the inside - just try to keep them to a minimum.
I've never owned anything in the region of 8000 grit stones and don't intend to, managing just fine on 600 grit or thereabouts, followed by stropping on leather dressed with Autosol to polish the bevel. Little and often is the key. I also haven't got many slip stones - it would be easy to spend a fortune on them, when a bit of shaped wood with a thin abrasive paper attached work just as well at a fraction of the cost.
I've never owned anything in the region of 8000 grit stones and don't intend to, managing just fine on 600 grit or thereabouts, followed by stropping on leather dressed with Autosol to polish the bevel. Little and often is the key. I also haven't got many slip stones - it would be easy to spend a fortune on them, when a bit of shaped wood with a thin abrasive paper attached work just as well at a fraction of the cost.
Eshmiel
Established Member
At present I do any necessary grinding with a Sorby ProEdge machine. It'll grind fast or slow, rough or very fine indeed and everything in between. But (re)grinding is a rarely needed event (of either cabinet-making tools or spoon carving tools). On the other hand, I read that the commissioning of carving tools can be a necessary initial one-off to improve them from even a sharp "factory grind" to a perfect for-carving edge. The Pye man himself sez so!
I'm hoping to do whatever's advisable to get any carving gouges I buy into a fit state for efficient carving forevermore; but also for quick and easy maintenance - i.e. something like your own regime of small reshaping/sharpening only if required but mostly honing on a fine grit to keep the tools very sharp for months of work (as an amateur doing only 10 - 15 hours a week of multi-tool use.
As its inexpensive, I intend to make wooden slips (troughs and half-rounds and Vs) that I'll coat with honing stuff of various grades; and/or with that 3M honing/polishing paper of various grits (down to half a micron but also up to 100 microns and lots of micron-values between). I reckon each slip will cost 0p for wood (I'm a skip diver); 5p per slip for honing stuff; and my time (free to me, £1,000 per hour to anyone else as it's running out and so becomes more valuable as time passes). I already have MDF wheels of various profiles, loaded with honing paste, for honing spoon carving tool edges.
I take your point about an inner bevel becoming established naturally as a consequence of honing. But should I take me new carving tools, wipe off the drool I've inadvertently slavered on them when opening the parcel then make the outside bevel 15 or 20 degrees instead of the factory grind 25 degrees? Here's the Chris Pye vids explaining the process:
The outside bevel angle determines the angle to hold the tool to get it to first-bite. At 15 degrees, Mr Pye points out that the tool grip sees the whole hand that holds the blade resting on the workpiece. A 25 degree bevel raised that hand off the workpiece and, he says, greatly reduces thereby the control of the user's push & steering of the tool. If so, such commissioning (factory grind 25 degrees to user 15 degrees outside bevel, + small inner bevel to strengthen the edge) seems worth it ...... ?
********
I know that for some, such detail-delving can seem to be "overthinking". Personally I'm much more wary of underthinking. After all, overthinking can be pared down to essential thinking; but underthinking might mean paring one's fingers off.
I'm hoping to do whatever's advisable to get any carving gouges I buy into a fit state for efficient carving forevermore; but also for quick and easy maintenance - i.e. something like your own regime of small reshaping/sharpening only if required but mostly honing on a fine grit to keep the tools very sharp for months of work (as an amateur doing only 10 - 15 hours a week of multi-tool use.
As its inexpensive, I intend to make wooden slips (troughs and half-rounds and Vs) that I'll coat with honing stuff of various grades; and/or with that 3M honing/polishing paper of various grits (down to half a micron but also up to 100 microns and lots of micron-values between). I reckon each slip will cost 0p for wood (I'm a skip diver); 5p per slip for honing stuff; and my time (free to me, £1,000 per hour to anyone else as it's running out and so becomes more valuable as time passes). I already have MDF wheels of various profiles, loaded with honing paste, for honing spoon carving tool edges.
I take your point about an inner bevel becoming established naturally as a consequence of honing. But should I take me new carving tools, wipe off the drool I've inadvertently slavered on them when opening the parcel then make the outside bevel 15 or 20 degrees instead of the factory grind 25 degrees? Here's the Chris Pye vids explaining the process:
The outside bevel angle determines the angle to hold the tool to get it to first-bite. At 15 degrees, Mr Pye points out that the tool grip sees the whole hand that holds the blade resting on the workpiece. A 25 degree bevel raised that hand off the workpiece and, he says, greatly reduces thereby the control of the user's push & steering of the tool. If so, such commissioning (factory grind 25 degrees to user 15 degrees outside bevel, + small inner bevel to strengthen the edge) seems worth it ...... ?
********
I know that for some, such detail-delving can seem to be "overthinking". Personally I'm much more wary of underthinking. After all, overthinking can be pared down to essential thinking; but underthinking might mean paring one's fingers off.
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