Bench Top

[wobblycogs]

I've got a load of holiday to take before Christmas and I was thinking of making a start on a work bench. I've been following Boz's threads (https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=33825&highlight=&start=10 and https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35974) and was thinking of doing something along those lines but with perhaps a couple of cupboards under.

I really like the idea of using laminated beech worktop for the top but I have come up with another idea but I'm worried it's a bit crazy.

I was thinking I could plane up a bunch of 75mmx47mm PSE softwood and laminate 16 of them side on to give a 75x650x2400 (approx) bench top which i could then top off with a sheet of ply or MDF. Assuming this has a sturdy base would it work as a bench? I'm concerned that the softwood core would deform when pressure it put on dogs and things.

 

[OPJ]

There are several members on here who have an MDF top on their 'benches and, as far as I can tell, there's little wrong with it, as long as you oil it (or something) to protect it (ordinary MDF doesn't like getting wet!). Your idea of laminating loads of softwood sounds great. I'd suggest that you simply screw the MDF to the pine. If you glue it, there's a risk the whole thing may want to cup. Unless, you put a 'balancing' sheet of MDF on the underside as well, to even things out...

You could treat the MDF top as 'disposable' when it gets damaged or, if you are keen on a disposable top, a sheet of hardboard pinned in place works just as well.

At 70mm thick, your top will be substantial. I wouldn't worry about the dog holes or anything unless you are planning to use cheap, lightweight, fast-growing spruce (sometimes referred to as 'whitewood')... Stick with redwood from a proper merchant; the kind of stuff joiners would use. :wink:

 

[Steve Maskery]

I think that would make a very substantial worktop for general use. You'll have difficulty in using trad dog holes in such a setup, but apart from that, sounds OK to me.

I wouldn't glue the MDF surface though. I'd try double-sided carpet tape first ( and I don't think you'd need very much) and if that didn't work (and I'd be surprised) use use brass pins, well set.

S

 

[wobblycogs]

Cheers, I was thinking of maybe using this http://www.budgetbuilding.co.uk/ViewProduct.aspx?ProductId=196&Product=REDWOOD STD/5THS PSE 50X50MM. I realize that this is only 50mm square but thinking about it my original design of 75mm + a ply or MDF top of say 12mm would be overkill. At 50mm I would also seriously consider ply / mdf top and bottom.

This company also sell something called CLS which is very cheap, I presume that is "whitewood". They state that it isn't very good stuff.

 

[wobblycogs]

I've only ever used a real workbench once and the dog holes were square with a lip part way down. Looking at the bench I guessed that the dog holes were built into it rather than put in afterwards. All the bench WIP threads I've followed here so far have drilled dog holes after the top was finished presumably round dog holes are becomming more common? What size are round dog holes normally?

 

[Steve Maskery]

You are right in thinking that square dog holes are fabricated into the original construction of the bench. There are pros and cons for both sq and round.
I think the Veritas dogs fir a 3/4" inch hole.

But it doesn't change my original point -dog holes will be more difficult to get right with a replaceable top, whether they are square or round.

S

 

[wobblycogs]

Ah ok, I didn't realize that the problem was because of a removable top. I hadn't originally planned on making the top replaceable. My plan was to glue it and make the whole thing one piece but OPJ noted that might cause it to cup if I didn't also put a sheet of something on the bottom.

My current plan (refined from what I've learnt so far) is a 45mm softwood core sandwiched between two sheets of 12mm hardwood ply glued on and then edged with some as yet unknown hardwood (I have some solid oak flooring spare so I might use that). That gives an overall thickness of 69mm which I think should make for a very substantial top.

How wide and long would you recommend the top be? I was thinking 650x2000 or maybe 2400mm? I think the length is good but I'm not sure about the width. When I consider that a standard kitchen worksurface is aobut 600 it doesn't feel like much.

 

[OPJ]

Make it as wide as you can afford to, really. You'll never regret it. 600mm or thereabouts is generally a good width, provided that doesn't include a tool well. The longer the better as well, within reason... Definitely make it longer than what you think you need; the minimum you believe you could get away with.

Also consider the dimensions of your workshop, the work you intend to do and how much working space you would like to have elsewhere. If you have plenty of room then (?), could it be more practical to set up a secondary bench (of much simpler construction!) for assemblies and generally dumping all the crap that would otherwise end up on your workbench? :wink:

 

[Mikey R]

I was thinking I could plane up a bunch of 75mmx47mm PSE softwood and laminate 16 of them side on to give a 75x650x2400 (approx) bench top which i could then top off with a sheet of ply or MDF. Assuming this has a sturdy base would it work as a bench? I'm concerned that the softwood core would deform when pressure it put on dogs and things.

Im building a softwood bench at the moment. The front half of the top is laminated from rough sawn 2 x 4s from B&Q, so will likely end up 90mm thick after I tidy up with a jointer plane.

As it is, Im expecting to have to reflatten it every couple of months. If you added a permanent MDF top, I dont know how well this would hold the bench flat, but I expect you would still need to flatten the bench quite regularly. OK if you dont mind planing MDF I suppose?

 

[Aled Dafis]

There's a cracking thread on Sawmillcreek at the moment regarding benches.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=124750

There's a lot of OTT benches there, but there's also a lovely softwood bench at the bottom of page 1.

Chris Schwarz is also a big advocate of using Douglas Fir, or Southern Yellow Pine as bench material. Please don't quote me on this, but I think that I've read somewhere (probably on Chris Schwarz's blog) that SYP is actually stiffer than most hardwoods, and therefore makes it ideal as benchtop material.

Although I've not read it, "Workbenches: From Design and Theory to Construction and Use" is fast becoming the first and last port of call for budding bench builders, and I'd urge you to have a good read through it before embarking on building your bench.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Workbenches...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259281512&sr=1-1
Cheers

Aled

 

[ondablade]

My limited experience of building a (not specifically woodworking) bench from 75mm thick roofing timbers on the flat suggests that you need to be very careful that ordinary softwood like this is well dried before using it. Something like yellow pine should be a lot more stable i guess.

My stuff had been in the garage for several years, was varnished and still moved quite a lot - including a little out of flat.

I'm gearing up now to build a decent woodworking bench. My solution (suggested by an article in American Woodworker) was to dig around and buy a 4m X 0.675m X 40mm length of slightly damaged worktop made from glued up maple strips - i got it for less than half price. Apart from anything else it should need very little flattening.

I was going to just face the softwood top with the maple, but it was getting complicated to find a way to do this that would not cause warping and to install proper dog holes - and concluded in the end that it would be better to halve the length of worktop, and laminate two thicknesses to give a 2m X 0.675m X 80mm thick top plus edging.

I've not yet figured how best to clamp it when doing this, or indeed what the best glue might be. A vacuum bag would maybe be nice, but i don't have one.....

ian

 

[Boz62]

If you are going for a softwood core with MDF both sides, why not just remove most of the core and make it a torsion box? You can put in a single softwood member for the dog holes (I've used 3/4").

Southern Yellow Pine is more difficult to get in this country it seems. My local timber yards don't stock it so it's special order. I costed it at double the price of joinery grade "redwood". That was why I ended up going the beech kitchen worktop route as that worked out the same price as SYP.

If I was going for an MDF top surface (non sacrificial) with dog holes, I think I'd just laminate 3 layers of 18mm MDF, and do it all in MDF. It's well proven. This was my original plan until I got the beech worktop bug

Good luck

Boz

 

[StevieB]

Something I have been pondering for a while - why do people not make benches like a butchers block and havethe end grain uppermost? Is it simply time and labour to craft it or is there a practical reason?

Steve

 

[Steve Maskery]

Something I have been pondering for a while - why do people not make benches like a butchers block and have the end grain uppermost? Is it simply time and labour to craft it or is there a practical reason?

Imagine a panel 2m wide. That's essentially what a butcher's block bench would be. How much movement would you have to allow for? I think it would just be asking for trouble.

S

 

[StevieB]

Hmm, hadn't considered that Do traditional butchers blocks move much? I suppose on reflection the ones I have seen are lipped in timber and had sturdy carriage bolts in he corners with iron straps, but I figured this was more for decoration than to prevent movement.

Reason for asking is I have just 'rescued' from work 5 worktops 3m long and 60cm wide in pine. They have been stored for years and are a bit warped. I was thinking of cutting them in half and thicknessing flat but then wondered whether cutting crossways into say 4" strips and gluing like a butchers block would work or not. Guess not if movement is a big issue.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[Steve Maskery]

I'd rip them to, say, 80mm and then glue them up face to face. It should be relatively easy to flatten each one and it doesn't matter at all if they end up a bit thin, you've got loads. Easy to build in dog-holes that way, too.

S

 

[frugal]

If you are going for a softwood core with MDF both sides, why not just remove most of the core and make it a torsion box? You can put in a single softwood member for the dog holes (I've used 3/4").

I thought that the reason for a thick solid bench top was to give mass and weight to stop it moving around when planing and sawing, but also to give a solid surface that does not bounce when chopping with a chisel and mallet.

If you use a torsion box you can overcome the movement problem by anchoring the whole thing to the floor, but wont the torsion box provide too much bounce to be used for chopping.

I can see how a torsion box is great for an assembly table, or someone who just uses power tools, but for hand tool use it seems to have a number of limitations.

 

[wobblycogs]

That is a great thread over at Sawmill Creek :shock:. Of course it leaves me with as many questions as answers but that, I suppose, is what good research should do.

Thanks for the suggestion of making a torsion box Boz. I considered that but decided to go for a solid top to give the bench a bit more weight. Out of interest did you attach the top to the legs with very large dowels? And if so did you acutally glue the top to the legs or just let it sit there?

Looking at all those benches I'm seriously considering doing away with the top and bottom laminations, it's starting to look like they would be more trouble than they are worth. I am a little concerned with movement in the top but what a good excuse to buy a jointer to flatten it out again

Has anyone had any experince with leg vices? I've never used one but they look like a really good idea. I'm guessing the bending down to reset it can become quite boring though. What sort of vice you would recommend on the end of the bench? The one bench I've worked on just had a standard woodworking vice but it racked quite a bit when using the dogs.

 

[Steve Maskery]

The leg vice is a very old idea and it has been superseded by the modern Record-style vice for very good reasons, not least the bending-down to retain parallelism all the time. Yes they look nice, but I wouldn't want to have to use one.
S


PS Iagree that a torsion box is great for an assembly table but not for bench.

 

[Boz62]

I also ruled out a leg vice due to the need to bend down (ouch) to move the bottom pin.

My top is located to the top of the legs by 1" dowels. No glue. I then used it like that for a few weeks and gravity seems to be enough (the top is 50Kg so is unlikely to move much). However, I'd already bought the stretcher plates (4 screw-hole angle brackets), so screwed them between top and each leg anyway.

I agree on the lightness issues of a torsion box top. My bench tops out at 100Kg total inc vice, and is great for not walking across the workshop uninvited . But for others, lighter may be a plus point, as I found trying to assemble and move a 100Kg bench single handed :evil:

Boz