Behold, the Speed Tenon...

[Lord Kitchener]

your hand away from there,

If your fingers are anywhere close enough to the blade that this could happen, your doing it wrong.

I use the guard that came with my saw, its an SIP its just plastic, the saw would nom it up no problem. I think Karl posted here pictures of his metal guard and what happened when that hit the saw.

I realise that you clipped what I said down to the bit that you wanted to reply to, but the other points I made still stand, and you've chosen not to address them?

But to deal with the part that you did reply to- Of course your hand isn't supposed to get close to the blade, the guard isn't there to protect the user when all is going along as it's supposed to, it's there for the time when things don't go the way they are supposed to. Cars are not supposed to crash into eachother either, but sometimes they do.

 

[Chems]

Yes I agree with all you said, every level of protection is valid even if it only buys you a split second.

All I'm really saying is, I've no illusion in my mind what that blade will do to any material that gets in its path, and remembering that, and the fact that the guard is not a impenetrable barrier is just my thought process when I fire up the saw and why above all I like to keep my fingers outside danger zone which in my mind extends a good 5-6 inchs all around the blade.



Edit: And if I was to really be incredulous at the Americans, one its for Norm and the butt clenchingly close his fingers get to the blade, but more than that, the lack of riving knife you often see. Gun to my head if I had to choose between either guard or riving knife, I'd choose the knife.

 

[Streepips]

I am with you all the way on this Chems, the most critical safety tool is between your ears. Any one using any tool has the option not to perform a function with it that he or she considers unsafe. This is subjective, not objective because different people will view the same thing different ways. It is only right and sensible that the default should be that all guards and safety options are in place and active and that way the safety of the machine operator is provided for by all means available...This will not prevent mishaps. People will still maim themselves with every conceivable safety precaution taken. Why? Because life is not a text book operation. Things happen.
By the same token, a skilled operator owner of a machine that is familiar with every aspect of the tool and is a competent and safe practitioner ..........
(I mean safe here in the context of a frame of mind and a method of approaching and undertaking the work in hand, not "safe" as in over the top PPE and guarding to the point of obscuring the operation in hand. )

...of it and is fully conversant with its hazards and limitations as much as its capabilities and functions will be an inherently safer operative than a novice or occasional user no matter what precautions may be in hand.

The difference between the two operators, is experience. That is one essential item that your ppe supplier and hse exec.will never provide.

I am perfectly happy to make my tenons in more or less the way shown, guard removed. even riving knife removed if it is higher then the crown..

I would also be very unhappy to see a novice using this technique and thinking that it was normal practice.

 

[Lord Kitchener]

All those who feel that skill and experience allows them to ignore safety precautions might like to have a look at the video attached to this BBC News report

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15848886

This guy will have passed rigorous training and assessments to become a helicopter pilot AND has 20 years experience.

 

[Chems]

I think the comparison between cutting wood and flying a helicopter means this discussion has run its course. A little like Godwins law but for table saw discussion.

 

[Lord Kitchener]

I think the comparison between cutting wood and flying a helicopter means this discussion has run its course.

I wasn't comparing the two at all, I was showing how skill, training and experience doesn't save anyone from inherently unsafe situations.

HTH

 

[dickm]

I was showing how skill, training and experience doesn't save anyone from inherently unsafe situations.

HTH

... and while we are on helicopters, Colin Macrae's death shows how the most skilful and experienced can still make mistakes.

 

[powertools]

Fair enough, on the discussion point.
But promoting a technique which deliberately removes the guard just sends out all the wrong messages, it seems to me.
Those 30 guys who ended up in ER today in the USA alone never thought it would happen to them.
S

I notice that when safety issues are raised injury statistics are always from the USA do we have similar data from the UK?

 

[Streepips]

Woodworking only? Or should we include helicopter and rally car incidents for dramatic effect?
I think there are statistics on the H&S Exec site.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Good q. I'm not aware of UK stats, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The US ones are very readily available, courtesy Mr. Google.
S

 

[Lord Kitchener]

It's a very long time since unguarded table saws were a common sight in woodworking factories in this country. Smaller firms are subject to H&S regulations too, and have been for many years.

 

[thecoder]

Think its down to the individual to assess the level of risk to himself and at the end of the day if he is happy to use the method then so be it. Far too many h&s minded people in this country wanting to fly the h&s flag with motives that are slightly less than genuine.

 

[powertools]

Good q. I'm not aware of UK stats, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The US ones are very readily available, courtesy Mr. Google.
S

My reason for asking wasn't that I doubt the US figures but I think the situation in the 2 countries is very different.

I would add that I think that any accident be it in a helicopter, rally car or workshop that could have been avoided is a tradegy.

 

[Lord Kitchener]

Far too many h&s minded people in this country wanting to fly the h&s flag with motives that are slightly less than genuine.

That's got me scratching my head a bit. What do you think their motives are, then?

 

[condeesteso]

Think its down to the individual to assess the level of risk to himself and at the end of the day if he is happy to use the method then so be it. Far too many h&s minded people in this country wanting to fly the h&s flag with motives that are slightly less than genuine.

I totally agree re assess the risk and make your own mind up. The guard came off my Tsaw from the off - it's a royal pain generally (Scheppach 2500). But I look at that saw and imagine the kind of damage it can do to me - I treat it with big respect / caution. I do suspect that those who need to be told to take care are the ones more likely to do themselves harm, and Darwin had an insight on that issue.

 

[Lord Kitchener]

I think everybody should be allowed to make up their own mind about issues like these, just as they should be free to go rock climbing, pot-holing, hang-gliding, any of those activities where a single moment's inattention can cause serious injury of death.


I think that they should also recognise that people are people, they are not perfect, and that it doesn't matter how many years of experience they have, or how much training they have had, that they can still have accidents caused by, for instance, a suddenly occuring illness, an unexpected distraction, or a wandering mind. So just as they are free to choose to take unnecessary risks, so are the rest of us free to disapprove, without interfering, as long as they are working on their own and not putting anyone else at risk.