Beginners' veneering problems

[RogerS]

I was trying to veneer for the first time and ran into all sorts of problems.

I've tried to be succinct and also use words that might help subsequent readers in their search.

Groundwork - ply - sanded and brushed down.

Glue film and iron

Veneer - ash.

1) Cutting the veneer. I found the veneer very brittle. I sandwiched the veneer between a steel rule and a piece of scrap wood and then tried running my Stanley knife down. The veneer fractured as I went down the cutline and finally at the end of the cut, a piece broke off taking with it a chunk of the veneer that was intended for the finished item. I also tried a veneer saw but with similar results.

Is there a better way to cut the veneer to its initial rough shape?

2) Glue film. I read two separate ways to do this. One way peeled the film off the backing paper, laid the veneer on top and then proceeded to iron it all together. The second way ironed the glue film down first. I tried the first way.

First problem was the veneer not wanting to lie flat. It was still curled from being rolled up and I suspect that I should have flattened it first but would welcome any advice.

I read that you should spray the veneer with water. This I did but how much do you spray it? I found that the veneer rippled up over the surface and that these ripples have remained..most noticeably at the edge

The ripples in the middle of the sheet were of the same magnitude but have flattened out overnight. However, you can still feel them and I know that if I sand them out then I will sand through the veneer (which is what happened with my first attempt).

Did I use too much water spray? How can I get either stop ripples occurring or get rid of them once they've arrived?

3/ Splitting veneer. Some of the veneer on the roll was split but the split was clean. I read up on veneer tape but can you use this with a hot iron and glue film or do you end up with a sticky mess?

4/ As I was ironing the veneer down, more splits opened up..

Why did this happen and is there anyway to fix it other than inserting a separate piece of veneer?

5/ Ironing down. How on earth do you manage to keep the veneer to stay down while the glue is still soft? The veneer kept popping up all over the place and as I moved the iron to rewarm and apply pressure...another bit popped up !

6/ Repairing veneer. In my first attempt I tried to repair the damage caused by a split by inserting a separate piece. The book I read suggested cutting out the repair piece first. Laying it on top of the damaged area. Cutting lightly around the repair piece and into the damage area. Putting the repair piece aside, finishing the cut, removing the old material, scraping out the old glue and then inserting new glue film and the repair piece.

End result? You can clearly see the cut lines although I tried very hard to cut as accurately as I could. Are there any tricks to filling in the cutlines or do I just need to get more practice at it?

7/ Would I have been better off using a vacuum bag and if so, what glue do you recommend?

Really appreciate any suggestions and help.

 

[Roger]

Hi Rog ..... sorry about the first attempt!

Is there a better way to cut the veneer to its initial rough shape?

A Stanley Knife just won't 'cut it' (no pun intended). A scalpel is the best by far.

Did I use too much water spray? How can I get either stop ripples occurring or get rid of them once they've arrived? How can I get either stop ripples occurring or get rid of them once they've arrived?

Water spray with Ash is fine, but a good covering spray then requires a press between clean paper and weights to flatten the sheet out while it dries, before going ahead with the veneering. Whatever glue you use, it really requires a press while it cures.

I read up on veneer tape but can you use this with a hot iron and glue film or do you end up with a sticky mess?

Yes - Hot iron + veneer tape = sticky mess!

Why did this happen and is there anyway to fix it other than inserting a separate piece of veneer?

Hot iron + dry veneer = cracks and splits. No way around it.

How on earth do you manage to keep the veneer to stay down while the glue is still soft?

You have to use a press of some type while the glue dries and cures.

Are there any tricks to filling in the cut lines or do I just need to get more practice at it?

Hot iron to level and shrink the ripples and bubbles, then a steam iron to 'spread' and fill in the splits somewhat.

Would I have been better off using a vacuum bag and if so, what glue do you recommend?

Definitely Yes - and the normal glue I use is PVA (Titebond) applied evenly with a small sponge roller - not too thickly, but sufficient to give a good overall cover. 45 minutes or so in a press and then any quick touch-ups with the iron. There are differing opinions of glue type for various veneers and forms, but for straight forward flat panels, PVA is fine.

 

[mambo]

i think youll find cascamite is better on veneer

 

[Colin C]

Hi Roger S

This is one of the reasons I still use Pearl/Hide glue as a lot of the problems you have had or would be easier to get over.

I would agree with some of what the other Roger has said.

You can use an iron on veneer but it is some times a fine line between too hot and not hot enough
](*,) #-o

I would say to get the veneer a little wet first and clamp it ( you will find that it will be easier to cut and get where you put it, most of the time :roll: )

When it comes to repairing it, it will help it put some masking tape down first. This will help you to see the line you have cut or tape down a piece a bit bigger than the repair and cut both at the same time, but dont try to cut all the way through both at the same time ( if you see what I mean ).

The splits you got where because the iron was to hot.

I hope the next one come out better or you can save that one

 

[Colin C]

When it comes to wetting the veneer.
Try dong it with a damp cloth, this way you should not get it to wet.
Just wipe it over.

 

[Anonymous]

Can I add my thanks - I am about to use some ash veneer too (would have done it earlier tonight but too tired). The info here should help loads

 

[jasonB]

I've only used the glue film once and was not that impressed, Tried it on a door blank with oak flexiveneer.

Biggest problem was that the large area of the door sucked the heat out of the iron too fast. I found the best way to deal with aread lifting was to heat them then use an old castiron iron to hold them down while the glue cooled.

I usually use a vacuum press and titebond but the door was too big for my bag. The vac press will flatten any wavey veneer, I have just been laying some myrtle burr that was all over the place but the vac pulled it down perfectly flat without any pree soaking.

I did use veneer tape on a few splits and joints but there is so little glue on the tape that there should not be a problem ironing it though if you have as much tape as this it may be a different matter :lol:

If the veneer is about 0.5mm then a decent pair of scissors will do for rough cuts or clamp a board over it and use a sharp stanley as a ruler does not apply enough pressure all along its length.

Jason

 

[A_n_g_e_l_a]

No-one has yet mentioned that if you are cutting veneer with a knife, (Stanley or scalpel), then do not attempt to cut through in one pass. Rather make many light cuts against your safety rule. In this way the veneer will not tear along its grain.

Successful woodworking is 5% skill and 95% technique!

Angela

 

[AndyBoyd]

I gave up on glue film a long time ago, if you have an industial heating press it works fine, but for us types it's just hard to keep it hot whilst clamping it up.
I use special slow cure PVA from Germany, and have used Extramite , but also normal PVA works well but does shrink a bit with bookmatched work to leave a larger gap between the matches than most like.
I just have lots of chipboard, 2 above and 2 below,newspaper and a number of clamps and cowls.
Simple but works well.

 

[AndyBoyd]

I have made a veneer shooting board
2 x 2m long 20mm plywood (circa 20cm wide), the clamp the veneer between, another piece of plywod that is wider (+15cm) below these two along which the plane runs, and I just trim the veneers till it is flush with the plywood.

Works a treat and is very simple and easy to store.

 

[Colin C]

No-one has yet mentioned that if you are cutting veneer with a knife, (Stanley or scalpel), then do not attempt to cut through in one pass. Rather make many light cuts against your safety rule. In this way the veneer will not tear along its grain.

Successful woodworking is 5% skill and 95% technique!

Angela

Angela

That is not alway right because if you are book matching a top and using hide glue.

The way I do it is to lay two veneers and cut them both at the same time, doing it this way you have to try and cut them in one go so you dont get tram lines.

 

[A_n_g_e_l_a]

That is not alway right because if you are book matching a top and using hide glue.

Ah! Well I don't do that. these days I lay down veneer using a vacuum bag and tape-join my leaves before gluing. And usually the veneer edges are are good enough to join directly without re-cutting.

I have used the scotch glue and hammer method but, unless you are repairing antiques, it seems an awful kerfuffle.

I have a veneer shooting board, (or had, haven't seen it in a while), but never really got on with it. I prefer a knife. If you must cut in one pass, the technique is to keep the tool, and hence the blade angle, very low as it passes through the work. It then cuts better and there is less chance of breakout.

Angela

 

[woodbloke]

I use an AirPress bag for veneering and always tape the veneer joint, I use a D3 waterproof glue. I do however disagree that using a knife is the best way to cut veneer - if you have to use a knife then a single bevel blade with a low cutting angle held against something like a piece of 18mm mdf ensures that the edge is square. Timber tho', being the kranky stuff that it is, and 'specially open grained ones like oak and ash are very difficult to cut accurately with knife, no matter how careful you are, bits and slithers seem to break away at a moment's notice. Making a veneer shooting board takes next to no time and just about guarantees that two leaves shot in it will be spot on, no matter what species of timber you use. Furthermore, the chances of making a mistake with something very expensive are hugely reduced as the board removes allot of the 'workmanship of risk' (been reading David Pye). John Lloyd in F&C recommends their use and if you have a trawl thru' the current issue and have a look at the article on Martin Greison's workshop :shock: you'll see him using a very posh pneumatic veneer shoot....oh and Robert Ingham also uses a veneer shoot if you look back at past issues. So, recommendations from 3 very top makers is good enough for me - Rob

 

[Colin C]

Ah! Well I don't do that. these days I lay down veneer using a vacuum bag and tape-join my leaves before gluing. And usually the veneer edges are are good enough to join directly without re-cutting.

Lucky you as I dont have a bag press:wink:

I have used the scotch glue and hammer method but, unless you are repairing antiques, it seems an awful kerfuffle.

Not so hard, it does depend on who you have been shown

I have a veneer shooting board, (or had, haven't seen it in a while), but never really got on with it. I prefer a knife. If you must cut in one pass, the technique is to keep the tool, and hence the blade angle, very low as it passes through the work. It then cuts better and there is less chance of breakout.Angela

This is how I cut mine

[/quote]

 

[RogerS]

Many thanks for all the feedback guys. I am starting to see a little light at the end of the tunnel ...as maybe that's where the vacuum bag/press is to be found. Had it with glue film and the iron!

One question.

Roger...Titebond...can you be a bit more specific please as there's so many

Rob - which D3 glue do you use?

Any major differences/advantages between the Bagpress Mini and the next model up? Or for that matter between Bagpress and the EVS kit from joewoodworker. The Bagpress runs continuously but the EVS is much more 'technically aesthetically pleasing' IMO.

 

[A_n_g_e_l_a]

Lucky you as I dont have a bag press:wink:

Nothing special about having a bag press. All you need is a piece of butyl rubber pond liner, glued at the edges with rubber cement, and an air compressor's inlet to suck.

 

[Colin C]

Nothing special about having a bag press. All you need is a piece of butyl rubber pond liner, glued at the edges with rubber cement, and an air compressor's inlet to suck.

What do you mean :-k ( having a bit of a slow day ](*,) )
Can I use my own compressor ( for air tools )

 

[jasonB]

Bagpress make a gadgetso you can use a normal compressor to create the vacuum, they also do a venturi for use with water. Biggest problem is that a compressor makes a lot more noise than a vacuum pump if you have it running for a few hours non stop and the water one is not much good if you are on a water meter.

The only disadvantage with the mini setup is the bag size, you can buy bigger bags but it may take a while to get all the air out of the bag.

I use Titebond II as its what I generally use. Another company making the equipment is "Air Press" which Axminster sell.

Jason

 

[woodbloke]

Rog - I use the Everbuild Weatherproof D3 adhesive (yellow bottle) but you'll probably find that other makes do a D3 version - just look out for D3 on the label of the bottle and you've got the right stuff. If you see something labelled D4 then its totally waterproof (good for boat building etc) but for general purpose use in the 'shop D3 works fine - Rob

 

[Colin C]

Thanks Jason

I had forgotten about that and will look in to it