Bandsaw

[Jake]

OK, time has come to bite the bullet and get a proper bandsaw. I have little Luna benchtop one at the moment, but I need to resaw some chunky bits of wood that are beyond it. And I like buying tools, unusual as that may be around here.

Budget? Flexible, up to a max of £1.5k, but I'd rather keep it down to £1k and less would be better.

One constraint is my cellar workshop, which means any machine has to be manouevred through a tricky doorway and down some rickety steps, into a space with 6'4' headroom. No fun, certainly rules out old 24"+ wadkins, and other such nice old iron.

So - new or secondhand? I've seen a used Startrite 1ph 352S for £550, and another practically new one for £900, half of list price. Advantages are that it is relatively compact, not too massive, has 300mm under guides which is enough, but only takes a 3/4 blade max, and has a pretty weedy motor (on hp spec, at least). On spec, especially new, it seems way overpriced for its (size) class, although £550 sounds a reasonable deal, for something that looks in very good condition.

Then there's a Wadkin BZB20 and an Agazzinni 600 both for around £1k, but both would require a motor conversion or a convertor. Bigger, better machines, but likely to stretch some muscles in the move especially if they don't dismantle too far or too easily. Probably over the top for the proposed surroundings and usage, and the hassle of converting is off-putting.

New contenders are the Jet/Axminster/Europac offerings (I won't mention the Scheppach, I promise). The better Italian (Meber, Centauro etc) 500mm wheel machines are beyond my budget.

The big Record looks good on paper, but as a brand they have never failed to disappoint me when I see them in the flesh after looking at the impressive spec.

Any other suggestions?

 

[mudman]

I have the Startrite 352S. I think the S stands for 'schools' as I bought it from one that was upgrading due to H&S rules. I haven't used any others to compare it to but I do like it. The table is cast iron (and very heavy) and the whole thing is nice and rigid. However dust extraction needs a big powerful thing and the guides are very basic. I also find steel bar that carries the upper guides is a bit loose and my biggest annoyance as it can twist as you tighten it up.
Overall though, I am very impressed. With a decent blade and careful setting up it can saw a dead straight line and has no problems resawing oak. I've also used it for cutting up turning blanks and it powered through some 12" tall logs I had with no problems at all.

PS Forgot to add that I didn't pay £550 for mine. Can't remember what I did pay though 'twas either £300 or £400 (senior moment I think).

 

[Scrums]

Yup, nothing wrong with a Startrite 352 - got my 3 phase one for £200 inc' delivery - pristine condition.......and it's located down rickety steps in a cellar!

Just got to keep watching ebay......

Chris.

 

[Jake]

Thanks, loyal support well noted - so what's the biggest you've each resawed on yours?

I've got a couple of 11"x3" baulks of teak I need to take down to 1" - think they're up to that kind of thing now and then, or is it a bit to much to ask of them with a 1.5hp (input) motor?

I'm not sure what the S stands for, but it seems to be a total change - I've seen a picture of a 352 and a 352S right next to each other, and the S is a good 6" taller.

 

[Scrit]

So - new or secondhand? I've seen a used Startrite 1ph 352S for £550, and another practically new one for £900, half of list price. Advantages are that it is relatively compact, not too massive, has 300mm under guides which is enough, but only takes a 3/4 blade max, and has a pretty weedy motor (on hp spec, at least). On spec, especially new, it seems way overpriced for its (size) class, although £550 sounds a reasonable deal, for something that looks in very good condition.

Then there's a Wadkin BZB20 and an Agazzani 600 both for around £1k, but both would require a motor conversion or a convertor. Bigger, better machines, but likely to stretch some muscles in the move especially if they don't dismantle too far or too easily. Probably over the top for the proposed surroundings and usage, and the hassle of converting is off-putting.

The big Record looks good on paper, but as a brand they have never failed to disappoint me when I see them in the flesh after looking at the impressive spec.

Any other suggestions?

Hi Jake

To find a 12in rip in a small saw is a pretty tall order (sic), and th Startrite is one of the few saws which can deliver it. There are quite a few Startrites around on the secondhand market as for many years the 351/352 (and later the 301) were standard training establishment machines. They may not be high-powered, but they are reliable and robust and you could do worse than pick-up a second-hand one. The limit of 3/4in on blade width is not unusual for a 14in saw. If you want a 1in or wider blade then you need a 24in (wheel diameter) saw - the smaller saws simply don't have the frame strength to properly tension a wide blade. Part of the trick to resawing is to get a decent blade - try Dure-Edge in Stockport. Oh, and my 352 will rip 11in with a sharp blade. Not the fastest in the world, but it will do it.

I have the Startrite 352S. I think the S stands for 'schools' as I bought it from one that was upgrading due to H&S rules.

The "S" indicates it is one of the redesigned machines, now made abroad. The newer machines have a one-piece cast-iron table (older machines were 2-part) and a revised rip fence. Therewas also an "E" (economy) model at one time.

I have two bandsaws, a 1980s 352 (2-speed, the 351 was a single-speed) and a 5-year old Agazanni Cosma 700. The Cosma is a nice saw, but as to getting its smaller brother, the 600 down a flight of steps - I think that's a no-no. Too big and heavy. Also, do you have the 7ft plus clearance that you'll need for a 20 to 24in saw? You'll find the BZB20 in the same league as the Aggy in weight terms. Both these machines would require a phase converter (flange face motors, so almost impossible to do a motor swap) and you'd need to get the cast-iron table off to move them - a 2 to 3 man job. If you have to go that way I'd be very wary - getting it down there might be easier than getting it out!

The one alternative that you might find secondhand at a good price is the SCM/Minimax S45 a 16in bandsaw. These have been around for more than 20 years and are still in production so there are probably a few in the market, however they only have 10in under the guides. The earlier ones were a sand colour.

Scrit

 

[Jake]

To find a 12in rip in a small saw is a pretty tall order (sic), and th Startrite is one of the few saws which can deliver it.

That's why it caught my eye.

There are quite a few Startrites around on the secondhand market as for many years the 351/352 (and later the 301) were standard training establishment machines. They may not be high-powered, but they are reliable and robust and you could do worse than pick-up a second-hand one. The limit of 3/4in on blade width is not unusual for a 14in saw. If you want a 1in or wider blade then you need a 24in (wheel diameter) saw - the smaller saws simply don't have the frame strength to properly tension a wide blade. Part of the trick to resawing is to get a decent blade - try Dure-Edge in Stockport.

I'm not that bothered about the width of the blade, I guess - I'm not going to resawing all day every day. It was really more of an indicator of its low paper spec for the (list) price. And as you say, most people seem to agree that quality blades are more important than width. Durability and reliability are good things!

Oh, and my 352 will rip 11in with a sharp blade. Not the fastest in the world, but it will do it.

Excellent - as I say, I've got a one-off need for this rip capacity now, but it wouldn't be frequent, so slow is fine as long as it can do it at all. Startrite horsepower must be real horsepower, I guess.

The "S" indicates it is one of the redesigned machines, now made abroad. The newer machines have a one-piece cast-iron table (older machines were 2-part) and a revised rip fence. There was also an "E" (economy) model at one time.

Do I need to be fussy - is there any real reason for distinguishing between a 352, Brit-built 352S and a foreign 352S? (Ignoring age and potential wear, obviously)

I have two bandsaws, a 1980s 352 (2-speed, the 351 was a single-speed) and a 5-year old Agazanni Cosma 700. The Cosma is a nice saw, but as to getting its smaller brother, the 600 down a flight of steps - I think that's a no-no. Too big and heavy. Also, do you have the 7ft plus clearance that you'll need for a 20 to 24in saw? You'll find the BZB20 in the same league as the Aggy in weight terms. Both these machines would require a phase converter (flange face motors, so almost impossible to do a motor swap) and you'd need to get the cast-iron table off to move them - a 2 to 3 man job. If you have to go that way I'd be very wary - getting it down there might be easier than getting it out!

I have the clearance for most 500mm saws, and (just) for some of the shorter 600mm saws. Interesting info re flange face motors.

I was inclined anyway to think that the bigger saws were ruled out for shifting reasons - even more so now. I would have to strip them right down to move them, and that would be a bore, even if it is possible.

The one alternative that you might find secondhand at a good price is the [Minimax S45] a 16in bandsaw. These have been around for more than 20 years and are still in production so there are probably a few in the market, however they only have 10in under the guides. The earlier ones were a sand colour.

Yeah, I was was watching one on Ebay a week or two ago, but it disappeared, probably as a consequence of a really irritating "do you have a buy it now price?" buyer queries.

Edit: grrr - just found out why, I found an advert for the same bandsaw, extractor and postcode in Loot for £300 so he must have sold it through there. £300! Gah.

 

[Jake]

Yup, nothing wrong with a Startrite 352 - got my 3 phase one for £200 inc' delivery - pristine condition

That's a very good deal you got there, they mostly seem to go for £400-500, especially single phase. You run it off a phase convertor, I assume - which one, and how much was it, if that isn't too rude? I suppose one advantage of the smaller motor spec is a cheaper convertor.

.......and it's located down rickety steps in a cellar!

Encouraging!

Just got to keep watching ebay......

I do - religiously. Project deadline is looming, though.

 

[Nick W]

I've just got the Record BS500. It hasn't disappointed me when seen in the flesh.

There are two areas I would nit-pick though.

1) There is confusion between the advertising, manual, and even the badge on the machine about the maximum blade width. Some say 1", others 1 1/4", the manual says both!. I have fitted a 1 1/4" blade and it works fine

2) There is no fine adjust on the fence. Shame as I got it partly at least for cutting veneers, but no doubt I can knock something up that will work.

I don't know if the offer is still on but I got the wheel kit and the 2-motor dust extractor for 'free' when I bought mine.

 

[Scrit]

The "S" indicates it is one of the redesigned machines, now made abroad. The newer machines have a one-piece cast-iron table (older machines were 2-part) and a revised rip fence. There was also an "E" (economy) model at one time.

Do I need to be fussy - is there any real reason for distinguishing between a 352, Brit-built 352S and a foreign 352S? (Ignoring age and potential wear, obviously).

That I don't know. Mine is the older 352 (no "S"), the original Startrite model, design dating from the late 1960s I believe. The original machine had solid mehanite (basically cast iron) blade guides which last forever and can be refaced a number of times (competent machine shop - my last regrind cost £25 for all four) before replacing. A plus is that if you want to run scroll blades it is a breeze to make-up solid wood or plastic guides as they're a single bolt fixing. The main items to check on these machines are the condition of the guides and the state of the tyres. They have a vulcanised rubber tyre which is bonded to the steel wheel. If they're ropey they can be replaced or might even be reground on the wheel (got someone who retyres and used to regrind) - but don't use the factory as they're expensive. Other than taht they're very simple wirth little to go wrong.

Scrit

 

[Jake]

Well I made the mistake of going to D&M to look at the 'new' competition. It was a mistake, because they had a Startrite 440R on display. Way over my budget, but made the Scheppach 5.2, Record 500 and Metabo (EB) 505 look like flimsy toys. The blade tensioning mechanism was a world apart, solid cast wheels, and just had a solidity throughout - rigid, mechanisms worked smoothly, etc. At £2.5k it should be a beauty, and it is. And it is short, and seems dismantleable (table, four bolts, wheels, one big allen key, etc). And it can swing a 50mm blade and looks as if it could tension one properly too. I want one!

Right, back to second-hand 352s, might have a bit of that industrial quality at an affordable price. Tool-lust is a painful thing sometimes.

 

[Colin C]

Tool-lust is a painful thing sometimes.

Some times :shock: ](*,)

 

[Scrit]

..... they had a Startrite 440R on display. Way over my budget..... At £2.5k it should be a beauty, and it is. And it is short, and seems dismantleable (table, four bolts, wheels, one big allen key, etc). And it can swing a 50mm blade and looks as if it could tension one properly too.

I believe that this is the ACM sold by Laguna in the USA as the 18in Resaw Master (Startrite seem to be buying bandsaws from ACM or Meber at present). The main problem with running a 2in blade is that they should be run on untyred wheels to allow you to get the tension right - tyres give a little "sponginess" which translates into shorter blade life and some harmonics in wider blades = rougher resawing (according to my carbide bandsaw blade supplier) which is why Stennor, Robinson, Wadkin resaws, etc had no tyres. To make effective use of the 2in blade you also need to add a power feeder - at anothr £1000 plus.

Scrit

 

[Jake]

I believe that this is the ACM sold by Laguna in the USA as the 18in Resaw Master (Startrite seem to be buying bandsaws from ACM or Meber at present).

It looks identical from a quick web-browse, even down to the same blue anodised ceramic guide holders, and the spec is the same.

The main problem with running a 2in blade is that they should be run on untyred wheels to allow you to get the tension right - tyres give a little "sponginess" which translates into shorter blade life and some harmonics in wider blades = rougher resawing (according to my carbide bandsaw blade supplier) which is why Stennor, Robinson, Wadkin resaws, etc had no tyres.

Interesting - the Startrite has rubber tyres, maybe to make it more multipurpose (but perhaps compromising it at the same time). Still, it has massive height under guides for such a compact machine, so even if you ran it with a narrower blade it would still be an impressive machine.

To make effective use of the 2in blade you also need to add a power feeder - at anothr £1000 plus.

Then I just need a bigger chainsaw, and the avenue of London Planes along my road can be planked.

 

[Scrit]

Well a friend of mine has a Forrester and secondhand they go for as little as £1.5k upwards - but it might be a bit big to get down your steps.... Smallest band resaw I've ever seen is the Hitachi CB75F band resaw which will run a 3in wide blade, but that is strictly a resaw and nothing else. It has 12in beneath the guides, too. My only worry would be how long the welds on the blade would last. One of the reasons resaws are so big is to reduce the amount of flexing the blade goes through in service - this will cause the weld joint to become brittle and in time to fail. It also absorbs a lot of power. Every time a blade goes once round both wheels the weld is bent then straightened out twice. On a large bandsaw with heavy cast iron wheels this flexing occurs a lot less times per metre of saw blade running than it does on a smaller saw - my Aggy 700 uses a a 5.1 metre sawblade, an Elektra-Beckum BAS317 (a typical home workshop machine) has a 2.2 metre long blade, so it's easy to see that for every metre of run the EB machine flexes the blade twice as often. Being shorter (less teeth) it will also require changing twice as often. Another often forgotten factor is the flywheel effect of large cast iron wheels which tend to smooth-out deep rip cuts by dint of the stored kinetic energy.

Scrit

 

[Jake]

My search is over, helped by the vagaries of ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 7605555767

 

[Neil]

Cor :mrgreen: - nice one, Jake! \/

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Jake]

Thanks Neil - yes, I'm pretty pleased with the deal on paper at least. I think they are overpriced (Startrite label effect) by a couple of hundred quid at least, so it isn't perhaps as stunning a deal as the retail prices might suggest. But at the price I'm paying, it is a better saw than those available at that retail price, but is still pretty much new.

If I had more headroom (and easier access), there would have been much more choice and I could probably have bought a better saw for less money (albeit in more used condition, with associated risks). An agazanni rapid 600 went for £400 the other week, and there's a nice Felder FB540 up now which is starting at £650 with no takers yet. And an S45 for reasonable money, and loads of big old wadkins, etc.