Axminster T-2000CK 1hp Cyclone or CT-90HB 2hp Extractor

[kmp]

I know this is a well discussed area as I have been reading as much as I can but I am still left undecided so any help or advice you might be able to give would be much appreciated.

My machines are fairly typical and consist of SIP 01332 Table saw, 107 Planer Thicknesser and 14" Bandsaw. These are in a double size garage and will need an extraction system with 3 outlets (all 100mm) and a run of about 7 metres. The more usual sanders and fine dust producers are taken car of by a Numatic 750 with the normal Hepa Filters. The larger extractor will sit in an enclosed space outside of the workshop but not to the open air. Unfortunately I am sensitive to fine dust so good filtration is vital and I will be fitting either a Jet 500 or Record AC400 to clean the air. Obviously I still use a 3M 7500 and Trend Airshield when necessary.

I was keen on the 1hp Cyclone but have been discouraged of late by several comments that the suction is "fairly weak" and I am concerned as the table saw is not the best for extraction. The 2Hp extractor with fine filter might be the answer although the filtration appears to be less effective and it still seems that some people are not impressed with its' suction either.

As this is a fair investment for me and I am not at all experienced with extraction, I hope that some of you will be able to overcome the boredom of the subject and advise on my best way forward. Your opinions and experience would be a great help and encourage me to get on and spend my money. Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Best regards

Keith

 

[LancsRick]

That's pretty low power on the Axminster even before you consider there's a cyclone in there - the 2HP version would look more appealing.

Ambient air filters are not something I'm a fan of - best bet is to stop the dust getting there in the first place, and I'd use your money on a decent mask (which you've already got), and a decent extractor.

Why not get the FM300BC which still has a 1 micron filter on it and use that? All of the machines you mention in your post would be well served by it.

 

[MikeJhn]

I have one of those and it has proved very capable: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ho ... eal-717658 it can be obtained cheaper without the cartridge filter, suction is impressive, it will empty my PT without any problem, note it is 2000m3/hr with a 125mm outlet this could be run into your workshop and swept T's with 100mm connections.

Mike

 

[kmp]

Thanks guys, more food for thought as usual. I must admit that the advertising for dust extractors, particularly the specification leaves much to be desired. It is very difficult to compare machines from different suppliers as they all speak in different dialects, a 1 micron filter seems to be anything but and certainly not at 99+%. In my simplistic mind a 1 micron filter should not pass anything bigger but, what do I know. Putting this together with the H&S advice which seems to say that anything smaller than 0.5 micron is the "real" problem and most dangerous. Then with the machines needing at least 1000M3/hr or greater to clear the waste I have failed to find anything that will meet those two requirements even with my budget of £1000.

The truth is that without good extraction/filtration to reduce dust levels enough to overcome my sensitivity I will need to find another hobby. I am aware of the positive pressure systems with the need to look like an astronaut but a hobby for me needs to be comfortable and enjoyable. So do I understand the problem correctly or, hopefully, is there something fundamental that I have missed and there are good and safe systems available that I just haven't found.

Regards, in hope.

Keith

 

[rdesign]

surely the cheapest and safest way to continue the hobby is have the dust extraction vented out side then the under a micron dust will be taken away by the wind and cause no one any harm. if your in a town or close to neighbours you could catch it in a outhouse or room and when the dust settles every month or two remove the fine dust wearing a dust mask.

Regards Richard

 

[MikeJhn]

The only way to get something that does not pass anything lower than 1 Micron is with a HEPA filter, when machining MDF I slit open a HEPA filter bag from my Numatic and fit it over the filter inlet, that still leaves the problem of it clogging and disposing of it, I still have on my Darth Vada hat when dealing with it.

Mike

 

[PAC1]

If you can site your extractor outside and vent the air outside the improvement in air quality is tremendous. The problem with all extractors is they only filter to various degrees of success and the first thing that passes through the filter is the fine dangerous stuff. A year ago I built an outside cupboard and installed the Jet DC1100 with vortex cone on 6inch ducting. It has plenty of power for my 16 inch planer/thicknesser 12 inch saw and spindle. This set up shifts so much air that we calculated 18 air changes per hour. The downside is you can not have the woodburner lit as it pulls the smoke back down the chimney. You just need to plan your work routine and do machining sessions and joinery sessions. Also you need to check the bag regularly.
I also installed a SUVA guard on the saw and have a dedicated hoover on this and on my SCMS. I need a better solution on my bandsaw.

I agree the data from manufacturers is less than helpful. It would help if Axminster would ensure it was all measured in the same units on their website for comparison purposes, but no many that say 1 micron do not say how many of the 1 micron particles it will trap. You can achieve a clean environment it just needs a lot of research.

 

[drewdt3]

PAC how long is run from your furthest machine to the extractor?

Drew

 

[PAC1]

As the shavings fly about 8m and 2m of flexi to the port on the machine. I only have one branch of it of 100mm dia.

 

[drewdt3]

Sounds good. Do you just move the flexi to whatever machine is required? Would 100mm ducting do the trick?

 

[MikeJhn]

Ducting is best as big as possible prior to the 100mm connection to the machine.

Mike

 

[PAC1]

Yes I move the one flexi to the machine ports.
100mm pipe is useless. Low pressure systems need lots of air to move the volume needed to clear the shavings. It might sound as if there is not much difference between 150mm and 100mm but if you do the maths 100mm duct is half the area of 150mm so it can only shift half the volume, then when you factor in that low pressure systems do not compress the air, bends and turbulence the actual air movement is even less. The simple rule is you want as few bends as possible and as large a diameter duct as possible.

 

[LancsRick]

Yes I move the one flexi to the machine ports.
100mm pipe is useless. Low pressure systems need lots of air to move the volume needed to clear the shavings. It might sound as if there is not much difference between 150mm and 100mm but if you do the maths 100mm duct is half the area of 150mm so it can only shift half the volume, then when you factor in that low pressure systems do not compress the air, bends and turbulence the actual air movement is even less. The simple rule is you want as few bends as possible and as large a diameter duct as possible.

I understand your sentiment but 100mm is far from useless. I definitely wouldn't go smaller, but a single 100mm can pull a decent amount of air. Extraction isn't just about the design of the pipework, there's a lot to be said about how you hook it up to the machines in terms of funnels etc.

 

[PAC1]

Yes I move the one flexi to the machine ports.
100mm pipe is useless. Low pressure systems need lots of air to move the volume needed to clear the shavings. It might sound as if there is not much difference between 150mm and 100mm but if you do the maths 100mm duct is half the area of 150mm so it can only shift half the volume, then when you factor in that low pressure systems do not compress the air, bends and turbulence the actual air movement is even less. The simple rule is you want as few bends as possible and as large a diameter duct as possible.

I understand your sentiment but 100mm is far from useless. I definitely wouldn't go smaller, but a single 100mm can pull a decent amount of air. Extraction isn't just about the design of the pipework, there's a lot to be said about how you hook it up to the machines in terms of funnels etc.

You cannot get 750cfm from 100mm duct with a 1.5 or 2hp motor on a low pressure system. My machines need 750cfm to ensure the fine dust is properly extracted. As for funnels and bends I agree. So I had them purpose made. The bends have a centre radius of 3xD and the reducing funnel is 300mm long for a 25mm reduction in D. The flexi has a smooth internal bore to reduce turbulence. I also adapted the extractor so that the fan sits on the ceiling and is attached straight onto the duct (no bends). I then replaced the pipe from the fan to the cone with steel duct. It all adds up to improvements in the system. The only poor part of my design is a 100mm branch for my bandsaw on a good day I get 200cfm which is not enough for my bandsaw.
The design of an extract system is about balancing the motor, fan, ducts and flexi connections to the machines if any part is out of balance it will not work properly.

 

[MikeJhn]

PAC1 have you got those M3 figures correct 750cfm is equivilant to 45000cm/h which is how most of the machines I have are spec'd.

Mike

 

[PAC1]

Mike I get 750cfm to about 1270m3/hr am I calculating that wrong? My testing kit largely verified my calculations in terms of cfm and in terms of air speed

 

[MikeJhn]

Sounds about right in fact, the confusion (on my part) is the foot3/minute too meter3/hour even the manufactures chop and change to give the biggest numbers for chip/vacuum extractors and the smallest numbers for a machines requirements, bit like mitre slots we don't seem to have any standard.

Agree with everything you have said on the size of ducting, should be kept as large as possible for a given CF/H decreasing the size of duct decreases the pressure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle) and the largest radius possible on any change of direction, for connecting from any run of ducting a Y branch is preferable to a T.

Mike

 

[kmp]

Thanks to everyone who contributed, some excellent advice and very informative discussion.

Having got rid of my frustration and properly read the posts, the PMs and all the links provided I found that a small annex to the workshop which vents outside via a roller door is just large enough to house the FM300BC with filter that a few of you use and recommend for my type of use. So off to Axminster and parted with the required beer tokens (package price thank you Axminster) and should get started over the weekend.

I was somewhat surprised by the potential cost of the ductwork and particularly the flexible to connect to the machines. I didn't want to reduce to 100mm directly from the extractor so plan to run 125mm (extractor outlet size) along the wall and then drop to 100mm at the "gates" and short runs of flexi to the machine. Not ideal I know but I am hoping that with only one machine in use at a time it will prove OK.

So thanks again for all the advice which has helped me to see a way forward, fingers crossed as they say.

Best regards

Keith

 

[Wizard9999]

Keith

I used 125mm ducting, same size outlet from extractor. I would suggest continuing at 125mm until as late as possible and reduce to 100mm only at the machine itself, as per below.



Only had my extraction in for a few weeks but very happy so far. Extraction from bandsaw is particularly impressive.

Terry.

 

[MikeJhn]

You really should have swept up the sawdust under the duct before taking the photo. LOL

Mike