Are standards necessary / useful in the UK?

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Are standards necessary and useful? Yes, provided they are applied appropriately.

I'd like to think there was some self regulation here? As a mfc org, why should I support
that X standard, which we believe is daft?
OTOH, I know we might lose sales initially, but longer term, supporting Y standard will
open up markets we are not yet in... and it does make sense?


More on topic, what woodwork standards are 'missing' / needed?
My recent one (very annoying) was dust extraction, ports etc.
What else?
 
Well, I think the question posed here intends to ask whether standards are best formed from the ground up or mandated from on high.

The value of standards themselves is obvious, how they're formed and instituted isn't.

Standards typically either improve efficiency (replaceable parts) or reduce risk (building codes)

Could easily make the case that standards contrived simply to reduce risk cause stagnation in a given industry, and that an industry can only sustain a certain level of stagnation. While the suits may not like it, some risk is required to keep this life of ours meaningful.

Good point. "Standards bodies" may document them, but the driving force is most often interested parties. This has upsides and drawbacks, often introducing bias etc, but generally, if done with a common interest this form of standards generation is the most successful.
Enforced standards? I'm sure there are some (taking a wide definition of standards) but I'd suggest this is not only ever successful when "interested parties" are *really* consulted.
 
I'd like to think there was some self regulation here? As a mfc org, why should I support
that X standard, which we believe is daft?
The problem with self regulation is "people"; specifically people who would rather not have the hassle of said regulation as it impinges on profit margin. Unfortunately, money (and to some scale, ease) are powerful motivators; hence external/mandatory regulation is all too often required in order to keep things in check.

Even in the case where an organisation isn't specifically trying to be cynical or greedy, it makes much more sense for "the standard" to be "my standard" (when it comes to, say, a connector or plug specification). The inevitable end result is n different brands on the market, all of whom are using plugs that are incompatible with one another (e.g. the early days of mobile phones - where pretty much every phone came with a different charging plug).
 
No. if the standard is not commonly agreed, whether it's your standard or not, it is unlikely to be commonly adopted, hence you will not benefit from 'your' standard.
 
No. if the standard is not commonly agreed, whether it's your standard or not, it is unlikely to be commonly adopted, hence you will not benefit from 'your' standard.
I think we're probably talking at cross purposes then; as that's not really what I was getting at.
 
The main problem that I see with Britain not keeping in line with EU standards is that manufacturers will have yet more standards to follow. At the moment, if you want to sell into the EU, USA and Canada, you have to meet the requirements for CE marking (for Europe), CSA (for Canada) and (for radio stuff at least) FCC for USA. If the British standards deviate from EU ones, we'll have to add British standards to that list (so that we can sell into Britain).

I often think XKCD has the best view on standards: Standards (I used to have this printed out by my desk).
 
The main problem that I see with Britain not keeping in line with EU standards is that manufacturers will have yet more standards to follow. At the moment, if you want to sell into the EU, USA and Canada, you have to meet the requirements for CE marking (for Europe), CSA (for Canada) and (for radio stuff at least) FCC for USA. If the British standards deviate from EU ones, we'll have to add British standards to that list (so that we can sell into Britain).

I often think XKCD has the best view on standards: Standards (I used to have this printed out by my desk).
You're risking dragging the dreaded "B" word into the thread; but yes, if the UK does anything other than blanket adopt EU-driven standards then it will inevitably require another set of standards for manufacturers to follow. Where I work we've been having to look into this (CE marking) because there's still some confusion over exactly what a post-Brexit UK business can or cannot (or should or should not) do with marking products that may be sold on the mainland (vs NI, and vs ROI).

XKCD is pretty much a cult favourite amongst many techies though. Great stuff.
 
Any manufacturing business, if it is to survive in the export market, would have to adopt the standards of the country into which they are marketing their products. So if we are intending to sell into Europe it would pay us not to diverge dramatically from the European standards. However that also applies to them selling into our market. We have to achieve a balance not just throw out anything European just because it is "foreign". But we should not be bound by it, our standards may well be higher, for example god forbid the importation of US Chickens...
 
Are standards useful? Just take a look round the average home and have a look at how many phone chargers there are, all with different outputs and fittings. Personally, I've got a drawer with probably 20 different chargers for different phone's - crazy!
 
The survivors and relatives of lost loved ones in Grefell Tower wish there had been better standards, which were actively applied. When products are traded internationally it is even more important. One thing that must not happen is "marking of their own homework" Boeing 737 MAX.
 
The survivors and relatives of lost loved ones in Grefell Tower wish there had been better standards, which were actively applied. When products are traded internationally it is even more important. One thing that must not happen is "marking of their own homework" Boeing 737 MAX.
Exactly.
In fact it's a daft question to start with - of course standards are necessary, who wants a substandard anything, from sausage roll to intercontinental jumbo jet.
 
Interesting perspectives given. I’m rather cynical myself of standards having sat on a few of the committees who set them in different industries, from automotive, electrical parameter instrumentation to medical. The committees supposedly have representatives from all stakeholders (interested parties) but are in reality dominated IMO by the largest manufacturers in that sector. The aim has always been IMO of the company’s to develop a standard that has been so difficult, draconian and expensive to implement that it reduces / eliminates competition. Nothing what’s so ever to do with protecting the public, that was always what the measures were dressed up to be. Lipstick and pig come to mind.

Now once these usually over the top standards get made into law, the real problems begin. There is nobody policing them. So, you have a situation where anybody can claim to be making products to a standard and nobody knows if they are or arn’t. A good example is the recent wonderful emission scandal of VW. A very highly respected German manufacturer of vehicles who you would have assumed was beyond reproach of flaunting, circumnavigating and fraud about compliance. Well, it would appear not.

The usual joke is that anything marked CE marked coming from China is not CE marked which by the way a company can award itself, it standards for Chinese Export. There as there is nobody to regulate, check or verify the millions of products meet the standards they claim to have been made to. The only time anything is checked is when there is a serious accident. Even then, most investigators don’t have a clue about the standards or how they are interpreted. At one company, who I was associated with, the largest manufacturer of the type of product in the UK, we were the experts the police called upon in serious automotive accidents that involved the type of products we made.

Look at FENSA, you have these days to be FENSA registered and ‘approved’ to fit a window. Well. Let’s look at the detail. How do I become FENSA approved? How long does it take to master the skills required / exams I have to sit? The answer might surprise you.....five minutes in the FENSA web site a few pounds and you get immediate FENSA certification. No exams, no nothing. Golly, I’m so glad and feel so well reassured that the window fitter is FENSA approved!

So, I have examples as long as my arm, and indeed just about everything I’ve ever looked into has exactly the same issues. Let’s as a last example take the law of the land, which has been cited. The pretext in the Uk is that not knowing the requirements of the law is no defence in the Uk. Well, how many of us know the law? I mean ever law that’s still on the statute books that could or is likely to touch us.....hands up......anyone.....nobody? Nope, none of us. It’s so complicated, open to interpretation, and it’s actual nature defined and redefined ever court case that we have specialists who make it their business to study, understand and interpret it for us.....lawyers! I can absolutely guarantee that every single one of us has broken the law multiple times and been completely unaware we have done it. There will also be numerous times we have broken the law deliberately, knowing, and with motive.......parking, speeding, jay walking are all good examples. I think it’s Wales that has / had the zero tolerance approach to all speeding offences, they certainly seem to have more than their fair share of speed cameras.....but have the most deaths on the roads. Possibly due to everyone focused on trying to slow down when ever they see a speed camera than actual focusing on driving.....who knows, but it’s reassuring that they have a zero tolerance to speeding.
 
.......I think it’s Wales that has / had the zero tolerance approach to all speeding offences, they certainly seem to have more than their fair share of speed cameras.....but have the most deaths on the roads. Possibly due to everyone focused on trying to slow down when ever they see a speed camera than actual focusing on driving.....who knows, but it’s reassuring that they have a zero tolerance to speeding.
More possibly due to still not having enough speed cameras.
 
Exactly.
In fact it's a daft question to start with - of course standards are necessary, who wants a substandard anything, from sausage roll to intercontinental jumbo jet.

Did you notice the lovely Boeing jet that has been grounded due to its propensity to fall out of the sky due to an air speed sensor.....only having one......complicated alarms etc etc? Good job it passed all those standards! Oh, and arnt they about to try and let it fly again.....with only one sensor!
 
I'd like to think there was some self regulation here?

Self regulation doesn't work because Money. This has been proven over and over and over again.

Did you notice the lovely Boeing jet that has been grounded due to its propensity to fall out of the sky due to an air speed sensor.....only having one......complicated alarms etc etc? Good job it passed all those standards! Oh, and arnt they about to try and let it fly again.....with only one sensor!
Tests which both Boing and the FAA have been found to have bent the rules on to get it through.
 
Interesting perspectives given. I’m rather cynical myself of standards having sat on a few of the committees who set them in different industries, from automotive, electrical parameter instrumentation to medical. The committees supposedly have representatives from all stakeholders (interested parties) but are in reality dominated IMO by the largest manufacturers in that sector. The aim has always been IMO of the company’s to develop a standard that has been so difficult, draconian and expensive to implement that it reduces / eliminates competition. Nothing what’s so ever to do with protecting the public, that was always what the measures were dressed up to be. Lipstick and pig come to mind.

Now once these usually over the top standards get made into law, the real problems begin. There is nobody policing them. So, you have a situation where anybody can claim to be making products to a standard and nobody knows if they are or arn’t. A good example is the recent wonderful emission scandal of VW. A very highly respected German manufacturer of vehicles who you would have assumed was beyond reproach of flaunting, circumnavigating and fraud about compliance. Well, it would appear not.

The usual joke is that anything marked CE marked coming from China is not CE marked which by the way a company can award itself, it standards for Chinese Export. There as there is nobody to regulate, check or verify the millions of products meet the standards they claim to have been made to. The only time anything is checked is when there is a serious accident. Even then, most investigators don’t have a clue about the standards or how they are interpreted. At one company, who I was associated with, the largest manufacturer of the type of product in the UK, we were the experts the police called upon in serious automotive accidents that involved the type of products we made.

Look at FENSA, you have these days to be FENSA registered and ‘approved’ to fit a window. Well. Let’s look at the detail. How do I become FENSA approved? How long does it take to master the skills required / exams I have to sit? The answer might surprise you.....five minutes in the FENSA web site a few pounds and you get immediate FENSA certification. No exams, no nothing. Golly, I’m so glad and feel so well reassured that the window fitter is FENSA approved!

So, I have examples as long as my arm, and indeed just about everything I’ve ever looked into has exactly the same issues. Let’s as a last example take the law of the land, which has been cited. The pretext in the Uk is that not knowing the requirements of the law is no defence in the Uk. Well, how many of us know the law? I mean ever law that’s still on the statute books that could or is likely to touch us.....hands up......anyone.....nobody? Nope, none of us. It’s so complicated, open to interpretation, and it’s actual nature defined and redefined ever court case that we have specialists who make it their business to study, understand and interpret it for us.....lawyers! I can absolutely guarantee that every single one of us has broken the law multiple times and been completely unaware we have done it. There will also be numerous times we have broken the law deliberately, knowing, and with motive.......parking, speeding, jay walking are all good examples. I think it’s Wales that has / had the zero tolerance approach to all speeding offences, they certainly seem to have more than their fair share of speed cameras.....but have the most deaths on the roads. Possibly due to everyone focused on trying to slow down when ever they see a speed camera than actual focusing on driving.....who knows, but it’s reassuring that they have a zero tolerance to speeding.

I think that what you're describing is people/organisations 'gaming' the system. Whatever system is in place, people will seek to manipulate it to their advantage in some way or other. Just because not all rules/laws are 'good' or have the desired results, should we chuck them all out? I suggest we should not, and that we should engage with the rule/law-makers to improve them (not easy to out-lobby the lobbyists sometimes, I know).
 

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