Anyone want to do a weight loss challenge?

[D_W]

But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under 10% of vegans so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem it’s the amount of food people put in their mouth.
I’d not heard of the keto diet until I read this thread, from what I’ve read it certainly isn’t a healthy long term diet with constipation a particular problem, this is no surprise as there is no fiber in meat or dairy.
I really don’t understand why carbohydrates get such a bad name, unrefined they can be a fantastic source of fiber who’s health benefits are well documented, increasing your fiber intake to 30g a day is possibly the best thing you can do to not only reducing a whole host of diseases but also increasing your life span.

I think it's probably important more to "do" than it is to assume with the atkins diet. I can tell you from experience:
1) eliminating processed carbs will probably reduce poo issues for some people
2) not everyone sees increased blood numbers, but the answer is probably two part -1) genetics, 2) what people are eating (and for how long).

There are a lot of epileptic patients on a modified diet similar to atkins in the long run as eliminating (or nearly) carbs cuts seizures (that is a medical fact). They make a deep pool of outcomes data rather than supposition, but I guess we don't look to their outcomes for some reason. The fact that a modified diet of the type is useful for epilepsy also makes it so that there are docs involved (and not bloggers) in administering and measuring outcomes. No clue if they have any interest in mining the data to look for heart issues.

There is at least one study showing that blood numbers on the modified diet get worse in the short term, but not in the long term.

I do think it's not likely to be a lifetime diet for people, though - it's boring and with such a limited menu, it becomes difficult to keep enough food around - especially if you're the only one doing it. I thought it worked well, but as soon as you bounce out of it cheating on eating something, you feel rotten for a couple of days, and in a house with kids, keeping the balance of fats relatively healthy was just too much work.

The reason I mention outcomes, though, is that associating conclusions to measures that "could or may" when actual outcomes are observable often leads to errors. For a long time, statins were assumed to be better for most (and in some cases, proposed for all) because bloodwork correlated to cardio and stroke risk. That was seemingly enough.

It turns out, using statins to get bloodwork to look good before about age 65 or 70 has no correlation with better mortality or morbidity, but with significant side effect profiles.

Thankfully, someone finally measured mortality and morbidity instead of bloodwork for a small group.

https://www.theactuary.com/features/2018/08/2018/07/31/statins-figures-pulse
Separately, I don't think most people will be on the atkins diet long enough to prove out long term numbers - aside possibly from diabetics and epileptics. It's novel, but not for me. If the overall effect was as bad as vegans think it is, though, there would be definitive data - outcomes based - pretty quickly.

(I also don't believe a vegan diet is unhealthy - though my pdoc likes to talk about the worst bloodwork he sees being from vegans......I can't imagine making it healthy is any more difficult than studying where to get a healthier fat balance in a modified atkins diet (even though it results in eating stuff that just doesn't taste very good in the case of the atkins))

 

[Doug B]

Personally I don’t think a Vegan diet is that healthy certainly from what I’ve read it has no advantage with regard to longevity of life over a vegetarian diet.
I am neither vegetarian or Vegan though I don’t eat meat but that’s more to do with the risks attributed to meat proven through medical experimentation. I try to follow a Mediterranean style diet as much as possbile with an emphasis on high fiber intake, over the years I’ve found it has served my well in keeping my weight fairly stable.
My failing is alcohol & the hollow calories it contains but I know from past experience that simply laying off the bottle will see any weight gained being lost without altering my food intake.

 

[Jameshow]

I think it's probably important more to "do" than it is to assume with the atkins diet. I can tell you from experience:
1) eliminating processed carbs will probably reduce poo issues for some people
2) not everyone sees increased blood numbers, but the answer is probably two part -1) genetics, 2) what people are eating (and for how long).

There are a lot of epileptic patients on a modified diet similar to atkins in the long run as eliminating (or nearly) carbs cuts seizures (that is a medical fact). They make a deep pool of outcomes data rather than supposition, but I guess we don't look to their outcomes for some reason. The fact that a modified diet of the type is useful for epilepsy also makes it so that there are docs involved (and not bloggers) in administering and measuring outcomes. No clue if they have any interest in mining the data to look for heart issues.

There is at least one study showing that blood numbers on the modified diet get worse in the short term, but not in the long term.

I do think it's not likely to be a lifetime diet for people, though - it's boring and with such a limited menu, it becomes difficult to keep enough food around - especially if you're the only one doing it. I thought it worked well, but as soon as you bounce out of it cheating on eating something, you feel rotten for a couple of days, and in a house with kids, keeping the balance of fats relatively healthy was just too much work.

The reason I mention outcomes, though, is that associating conclusions to measures that "could or may" when actual outcomes are observable often leads to errors. For a long time, statins were assumed to be better for most (and in some cases, proposed for all) because bloodwork correlated to cardio and stroke risk. That was seemingly enough.

It turns out, using statins to get bloodwork to look good before about age 65 or 70 has no correlation with better mortality or morbidity, but with significant side effect profiles.

Thankfully, someone finally measured mortality and morbidity instead of bloodwork for a small group.

https://www.theactuary.com/features/2018/08/2018/07/31/statins-figures-pulse
Separately, I don't think most people will be on the atkins diet long enough to prove out long term numbers - aside possibly from diabetics and epileptics. It's novel, but not for me. If the overall effect was as bad as vegans think it is, though, there would be definitive data - outcomes based - pretty quickly.

(I also don't believe a vegan diet is unhealthy - though my pdoc likes to talk about the worst bloodwork he sees being from vegans......I can't imagine making it healthy is any more difficult than studying where to get a healthier fat balance in a modified atkins diet (even though it results in eating stuff that just doesn't taste very good in the case of the atkins))

Is processed carbs about like chipboard, MDF, and OSB to woodworkers!

Useful but not good in large measures!!!

 

[D_W]

Is processed carbs about like chipboard, MDF, and OSB to woodworkers!

Useful but not good in large measures!!!

I should've referred to that as refined carbs like white flour, etc. I'd bet white flour has a lot to do. Plus, dudes don't have much trouble with that, anyway - I know that's not universal, but saw a lady PCP once mention that in decades, it was a daily issue with the ladies and three men ever had issues big enough to speak up about.

that said, I don't think simple carbs that don't come in a whole food are particular great for folks - like MDF - the uniformity and density don't seem to be common in nature.

(Maybe they decrease our ability to hold screws, too!)

 

[johnny]

But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under 10% of vegans so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem it’s the amount of food people put in their mouth.

Doug there is probably less than one tenth of 1% of the Worlds population are Vegan ......its an absolute miniscule percentage
By your argument 10% of 0.1% is nothing ...its not representative and of absolutely no relevance .
If you buy 100 oranges and take just one orange and cut it into 10 pieces and take one of those 10 pieces and say this one little piece of an orange is a significant indicator about the other 99.9 oranges

Think of it another way ......99.9% of the World are meat eaters therefore by your argument 33% of the Worlds population are overweight ! ( its actually far higher than that)

I think most of us are aware now that Carbohydrates are the source of all the Worlds Chronic Health conditions .You cannot pick up a newspaper or switch on the TV without being bombarded with it .It never ceases to amaze me how the vast majority of folk refuse to open their minds and become informed about anything but would rather stick their heads in the sand and refuse to consider anything but their own uninformed opinions ..... its why we are in a Worldwide Health crisis .

 

[Doug B]

Doug there is probably less than one tenth of 1% of the Worlds population are Vegan ......its an absolute miniscule percentage

I think you’ll find it’s almost 1% which equates to 79 million people, that’s an awful lot of people.

Think of it another way ......99.9% of the World are meat eaters therefore by your argument 33% of the Worlds population are overweight ! ( its actually far higher than that)

Do you just make these figures up? It’s estimated 22% of the worlds population is vegetarian & 39% of the worlds population of adults meat eaters & non meat eaters are over weight.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Do you just make these figures up?

Yes, he does - or posts references to junk sites. I'd suggest you put him on ignore, he has nothing of value to contribute.

His primary reference is a woman selling a fad diet book, who has been proven to have lied about studying for a PhD. See (again) Zoë Harcombe - RationalWiki

 

[Jacob]

Just been reminded of top tip for those who try the ELF diet (acronym for "Eat Less Food").
3 days in hospital - food is very normal ( a bit like school dinners) but easily half the quantities of typical pub trade etc. But served on half sized plates! A cunning move! Plates about 8" dia.

 

[johnny]

I think you’ll find it’s almost 1% which equates to 79 million people, that’s an awful lot of people.



Do you just make these figures up? It’s estimated 22% of the worlds population is vegetarian & 39% of the worlds population of adults meat eaters & non meat eaters are over weight.

Doug
I was responding to your statement about Veganism representing 10% of the Worlds diet . Here is your statement .
quote' But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under 10% of vegans so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem ' I pass your comment straight back at you.!

Quote ' It’s estimated 22% of the worlds population is vegetarian'

Where did you read that 1/5th of the Worlds population are Vegetarian ?
please show us your reference source .
I am not trying to start an argument with you ...As an academic and a Type 2 Diabetic I have a genuine interest in all things related to diet and health.

 

[Jacob]

Doug
I was responding to your statement about Veganism representing 10% of the Worlds diet . Here is your statement .
quote' But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under 10% of vegans so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem ' I pass your comment straight back at you.!

Quote ' It’s estimated 22% of the worlds population is vegetarian'

Where did you read that 1/5th of the Worlds population are Vegetarian ?
please show us your reference source .
I am not trying to start an argument with you ...As an academic and a Type 2 Diabetic I have a genuine interest in all things related to diet and health.

"As an academic" perhaps you could show us your reference sources for the most reliable figures?

 

[D_W]

Just been reminded of top tip for those who try the ELF diet (acronym for "Eat Less Food").
3 days in hospital - food is very normal ( a bit like school dinners) but easily half the quantities of typical pub trade etc. But served on half sized plates! A cunning move! Plates about 8" dia.

That's different than here - plates are normal size, and interestingly, you're in the hospital here and dessert is offered with meals.

But maybe it's me (picky, like plain food and prefer it to be palatable and not have funny textures), it was still easy to eat relatively little of it.

ELF with a bunch of tricks is a fine thing to offer, but people tend to focus on the tricks and not what they're trying to do with them. There's nothing wrong with measuring things and quantifying them - and then come up with the bag of tricks to meet them. My spouse is one of those people who constantly has ever rotating "tricks" suggestions and she's not that excited if you do something that she didn't advise. As in, in this case (probably said it already), she wants me to eat smaller portions all the time, then not sugary food, then not too much of this or that (fat, whatever else), but if it's something like "well, I don't have any specific thoughts other than eating less crap to eat less overall, but it's not really a diet at this point, it's an age related change and a permanent one".

If smaller plates is one of the tricks, that's fine. If eating twice a day instead of three is one of the tricks, fine. If making one of the meals or even two all whole foods, great - whatever it takes. It's all measurable. One of my tricks is that the weighing has to be every day. If it takes longer than expected (I'd like to drop 55 pounds from January to July, but that's probably a bit too much and it may take losing more than just fat to do it), no problem. If I step away from weighing on a regular basis, then I automatically start seeing a cheat here or there (not even a purposeful one, like an event, business dinner, etc) as fine "catch up by the end of the week".

Weighing every day "not having it, will be on the scale tomorrow morning and will see the extra water retention and get annoyed".

 

[johnny]

Yes, he does - or posts references to junk sites. I'd suggest you put him on ignore, he has nothing of value to contribute.

His primary reference is a woman selling a fad diet book, who lied for years that she had a PhD. See (again) Zoë Harcombe - RationalWiki

Zoe Harcombe does have a PHD which anyone can check that here .

To falsely accuse someone of lying is Libelous

Unless you can provide definitive proof of your accusation .....such as a copy of something that Zoe has either said or written prior to obtaining her PhD in March 2016 I would very strongly suggest that you remove your Defamatory accusation before you find yourself and this Forum facing a very costly and embarrassing Court Action.

Zoe has achieved a BA and MA in Mathematics and Economics and a PhD in Public Health Nutrition and was Vice President for Human Resources for Europe, Middle East and Africa .She has also written many books and published many peer reviewed research papers in numerous leading Medical and Scientific Journals .She is widely recognised as one of the Worlds most distinguished and knowledgeable experts on Public Health and Nutrition and is regularly invited to speak on Health and Nutrition at events around the World.

That incredible achievement is something to admire and respect ........not something to try to belittle or ridicule as you have done... ..............

it just shows every member on this Forum what kind of character you have
https://denversdietdoctor.com/about-zoe-harcombe-phd/

 

[John Brown]

Zoe Harcombe does have a PHD which anyone can check that here .

To falsely accuse someone of lying is Libelous

Unless you can provide definitive proof of your accusation .....such as a copy of something that Zoe has either said or written prior to obtaining her PhD in March 2016 I would very strongly suggest that you remove your Defamatory accusation before you find yourself and this Forum facing a very costly and embarrassing Court Action.

Zoe has achieved a BA and MA in Mathematics and Economics and a PhD in Public Health Nutrition and was Vice President for Human Resources for Europe, Middle East and Africa .

That incredible achievement is something to admire and respect not something to try to belittle or ridicule as you have done... it just shows every member on this Forum what kind of character you have
https://denversdietdoctor.com/about-zoe-harcombe-phd/

Zoe Harcombe does have a PHD which anyone can check that here .

To falsely accuse someone of lying is Libelous

Unless you can provide definitive proof of your accusation .....such as a copy of something that Zoe has either said or written prior to obtaining her PhD in March 2016 I would very strongly suggest that you remove your Defamatory accusation before you find yourself and this Forum facing a very costly and embarrassing Court Action.

Zoe has achieved a BA and MA in Mathematics and Economics and a PhD in Public Health Nutrition and was Vice President for Human Resources for Europe, Middle East and Africa .

That incredible achievement is something to admire and respect not something to try to belittle or ridicule as you have done... it just shows every member on this Forum what kind of character you have
https://denversdietdoctor.com/about-zoe-harcombe-phd/

I knew I'd seen that name before.
https://www.badscience.net/2011/01/how-to-read-a-paper/
She may well have a PHD now, but that doesn't preclude her from having lied about it in the past.
As for being vice president, at somewhere like JP Morgan, about half the staff have that title. My wife was a VP there. If she has a PHD, she's keeping it secret.
Not that I have a dog in this fight...

 

[johnny]

I knew I'd seen that name before.
https://www.badscience.net/2011/01/how-to-read-a-paper/
She may well have a PHD now, but that doesn't preclude her from having lied about it in the past.
As for being vice president, at somewhere like JP Morgan, about half the staff have that title. My wife was a VP there. If she has a PHD, she's keeping it secret.
Not that I have a dog in this fight...

well as I have already said John unless you can show indisputable evidence of Zoe Harcombe not having been awarded a PhD.... I would suggest that you do not add fuel to the fire in ignorance.......

Nothing you or anyone else can say can take away her prodigeous Academic achievements and anyone attempting to belittle another persons academic achievements is nothing short of contemptuous in my opinion

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I knew I'd seen that name before.
https://www.badscience.net/2011/01/how-to-read-a-paper/
She may well have a PHD now, but that doesn't preclude her from having lied about it in the past.

Is he still banging on about that lying, fad-diet-book-shilling quack?

 

[D_W]

I knew I'd seen that name before.
https://www.badscience.net/2011/01/how-to-read-a-paper/
She may well have a PHD now, but that doesn't preclude her from having lied about it in the past.
As for being vice president, at somewhere like JP Morgan, about half the staff have that title. My wife was a VP there. If she has a PHD, she's keeping it secret.
Not that I have a dog in this fight...

All investment banks have thousands of VP - let's be realistic about what they do for most higher net worth clients - they try to make sure the client thinks they're prestigious and do whatever it takes for the client to figure out that they'd have a lot more money if they went elsewhere to have their assets trusteed.

Not just investment banks. And it's apparently not well liked to say "who are the real VPs...like the C-suite people".

Or when people talk about having a phD, saying "actually, I was looking for a real doctor, not a humanities phD".

 

[Jameshow]

All investment banks have thousands of VP - let's be realistic about what they do for most higher net worth clients - they try to make sure the client thinks they're prestigious and do whatever it takes for the client to figure out that they'd have a lot more money if they went elsewhere to have their assets trusteed.

Not just investment banks. And it's apparently not well liked to say "who are the real VPs...like the C-suite people".

Or when people talk about having a phD, saying "actually, I was looking for a real doctor, not a humanities phD".

My sister is a director of a multinational toy company specialising in bricks... When she got her job she found out there are 4 levels of directors...

 

[Doug B]

Doug
I was responding to your statement about Veganism representing 10% of the Worlds diet . Here is your statement .
quote' But over 33% of meat eaters are over weight compared to under 10% of vegans so clearly carbohydrates aren’t the problem ' I pass your comment straight back at you.!

I don’t know how you construed what I wrote as to be saying veganism represents 10% of the worlds diet. I was talking about the amount of overweight folks in each group 33% of meat eaters are over weight as opposed to only 10% of vegans being over weight.
When you consider vegans are cutting out all meat, fish & dairy their diet will be higher in carbohydrates yet less of them are fat so clearly a higher carbohydrate diet doesn’t automatically mean you’ll be over weight far from it, it’s about how much you eat.

Quote ' It’s estimated 22% of the worlds population is vegetarian'

Where did you read that 1/5th of the Worlds population are Vegetarian ?
please show us your reference source .
I am not trying to start an argument with you ...As an academic and a Type 2 Diabetic I have a genuine interest in all things related to diet and health.

Try Googling it, but here’s a start it’s estimated in India alone that over 40% of the population are vegetarian due to religious convictions, so that equates to nearly half a billion people around 1/16th or just over 6% of the worlds population & that’s just in one country.

 

[kinverkid]

My sister is a director of a multinational toy company specialising in bricks... When she got her job she found out there are 4 levels of directors...

Did she have to go on a brick course?

 

[John Brown]

All investment banks have thousands of VP - let's be realistic about what they do for most higher net worth clients - they try to make sure the client thinks they're prestigious and do whatever it takes for the client to figure out that they'd have a lot more money if they went elsewhere to have their assets trusteed.

Not just investment banks. And it's apparently not well liked to say "who are the real VPs...like the C-suite people".

Or when people talk about having a phD, saying "actually, I was looking for a real doctor, not a humanities phD".

That's exactly the point I was making.
At JPM the next level up after VP was executive director.