Anyone ever linked 2 chip style HPLV extractors together?

[giantbeat]

odd question i guess.

im looking to improve the fine dust extraction in my sanding room, i have a specific very small room in my workshop for doing sanding in, its only a very small area, but in it i have a 26" flat sanding disc, a jet floor standing oscillating sander & have just started to build a small downdraftt table to sand on.

i already have one sip ( chip) extractor, i use a henry vac direct on my hand sanders... as i have been unable make room for anything big extraction wise, the idea pooped into my head to hooking all 3 (bobbin, disc & downdraft) permanently to 100mm pipe running round the room & connect each end of the pipe to a similar (chip style, with the .5micron filter) extractor (the record dx1000 is on offer) they will fit under the small downdraft table so not occupy any more space than im currently using.

obviously each machine will be isolated with a gate.

has anyone tried this? i only thought of it after watching the record power video about extraction, in the vid he mentioned just adding more extraction machines as you expand your setup.

p.s noise is not in issue, its a commercial workshop, im aware 2 of these vacs might scream a bit.

Edited - due to me using the wrong term regarding my current extractor its HPLV not Vac style

 

[CHJ]

Separate extractors working in parallel rarely works, unless the pressure drop is exactly the same at each machine, otherwise the more powerful/higher flow rate machine will more than likely starve the others of adequate air flow and their fans will stall.


Suction fans working in series can increase suction performance as long as the characteristics are matched so that all fans are fully loaded with enough air volume so that they don't stall.

 

[sploo]

For 100mm pipe you really want to be running HVLP extractors rather than vacs (which are LVHP).

Increasing the size of the ducting (e.g. 150mm) is useful (sometimes necessary) in order to get sufficient airflow to capture small dust, as HVLP systems really suffer from restrictions (air doesn't compress well with HVLP, so thinner piping kills air flow). However, you do need to be able to move enough air to achieve sufficient linear feet per minute to still capture dust. I.e. really big pipework with an underpowered extractor will not result in sufficient air speed.

Vacuums such as the Henry should best be kept for smaller machines (with smaller dust connectors), where high pressure is required.

You could of course have multiple HVLP "chip" extractors (like the Record), piped such that each one is connected independently to each machine (don't cross the streams :wink.

In short though: a vacuum on 100mm pipe is unlikely to be a good idea.

 

[giantbeat]

For 100mm pipe you really want to be running HVLP extractors rather than vacs (which are LVHP).

Increasing the size of the ducting (e.g. 150mm) is useful (sometimes necessary) in order to get sufficient airflow to capture small dust, as HVLP systems really suffer from restrictions (air doesn't compress well with HVLP, so thinner piping kills air flow). However, you do need to be able to move enough air to achieve sufficient linear feet per minute to still capture dust. I.e. really big pipework with an underpowered extractor will not result in sufficient air speed.

Vacuums such as the Henry should best be kept for smaller machines (with smaller dust connectors), where high pressure is required.

You could of course have multiple HVLP "chip" extractors (like the Record), piped such that each one is connected independently to each machine (don't cross the streams :wink.

In short though: a vacuum on 100mm pipe is unlikely to be a good idea.

i think i may have confused things by using the word "Vac" regarding my SIP, its a chip collector style extractor but with the .5 micron filter... just like the Record. im not talking about hooking the henry VAC up to 100mm, more connecting 100mm to the 2 chip collectors, one at each end of the pipe work.

i only use my Henry connected directly to my palm sanders dust port.

 

[giantbeat]

Separate extractors working in parallel rarely works, unless the pressure drop is exactly the same at each machine, otherwise the more powerful/higher flow rate machine will more than likely starve the others of adequate air flow and their fans will stall.


Suction fans working in series can increase suction performance as long as the characteristics are matched so that all fans are fully loaded with enough air volume so that they don't stall.

thanks for the info, im only going to be running one machine at a time, each machine would be gated off from the others when not in use, i guess i was thinking if i have a extractor at each end of tubing run, im going to maximize dust removal from the machine im running, both extractors are similar spec.

if i had space i would gladly just hook up one extractor to each machine... have spent weeks thinking & looking at extraction & how to deal with it, thought the info on the record site had simplified it for me.

 

[CHJ]

The same philosophy still applies with HVLP as in my first post, unless the pressure drop is identical at each extractor connection point then one will always be trying to starve the other, even if you balance the system perfectly when running 'open' as soon as a gate is opened nearer one machine than the other or debris enters the airstream the balance will be destroyed and you could end up with waste material just coming out of suspension and lying in the ducting.

 

[giantbeat]

The same philosophy still applies with HVLP as in my first post, unless the pressure drop is identical at each extractor connection point then one will always be trying to starve the other, even if you balance the system perfectly when running 'open' as soon as a gate is opened nearer one machine than the other or debris enters the airstream the balance will be destroyed and you could end up with waste material just coming out of suspension and lying in the ducting.

cool thanks CHJ, i'm with you, so i can scrap that idea & ignore what the Record video implied, best option i have its to have the 2 extractors, one hooked permanently to one machine (which ever is the hardest to connect up ) & the other i will connect as and when i need to to the other 2.

thanks again, extraction is a bloody nightmare to get to grips with.

 

[CHJ]

It's not unknown in systems that have smaller diameter hose connections to machines to have a 'Bleed' gate at the far end of the main extraction run to let in greater airflow to keep debris in suspension and stop the extractor fan from being starved and stalling.


Do you by any chance have the option of having your extractor fitted outside the work area, reduces the clutter, and dependant upon the dust hazard to others, can mean that you can run with much coarser filters and considerably increase the airflow rate. For instance my cheap and cheerful 100mm extractor will happily consume a 50mm cube of wood or an errant screwdriver over about 3 metres of bendy piping, (even 7-8 mtrs. when cleaning up the shed floor)fortunately it has a steel fan not plastic.

 

[MattRoberts]

I have read that you can run equal extractors in serial and get a performance increase, but not tried it myself. I personally would be looking to get an upgraded and more powerful single extractor in that instance

 

[giantbeat]

It's not unknown in systems that have smaller diameter hose connections to machines to have a 'Bleed' gate at the far end of the main extraction run to let in greater airflow to keep debris in suspension and stop the extractor fan from being starved and stalling.


Do you by any chance have the option of having your extractor fitted outside the work area, reduces the clutter, and dependant upon the dust hazard to others, can mean that you can run with much coarser filters and considerably increase the airflow rate. For instance my cheap and cheerful 100mm extractor will happily consume a 50mm cube of wood or an errant screwdriver over about 3 metres of bendy piping, (even 7-8 mtrs. when cleaning up the shed floor)fortunately it has a steel fan not plastic.

that's first point is interesting, probably going to make me think too much my brain is already mush from all this.... i could certainly look into making something like that work.

unfortunately i don't think i do at this stage, i moved my sanding into said area as dust in the main workshop is problematic, im finishing & repairing musical instruments, namely drums, which take up a lot of space whilst you are working on them, i dont have an exterior wall i can get through easily so outside is a no no besides there is a infants school just to one side of my building so im not sure thats a good idea.

im trying to isolate & keep all the dusty messy processes in individual rooms, but limiting whats gets airborn seems tricky. i was looking at an extractor to hang on a wall, but non of these seem to be fine filtered or way out of any budget i have, All the fine filter extractors seem huge apart from these 45/50 liter metal can type extractors like my sip & the record

 

[giantbeat]

I have read that you can run equal extractors in serial and get a performance increase, but not tried it myself. I personally would be looking to get an upgraded and more powerful single extractor in that instance

any suggestions to to what? upgrading isnt an issue within reason, its the space they take thats the problem! the room i have is 2m x 1.7m i need something compact.

had previously intended on getting the wall mounted CT-50RCK from axminster but then read that 1 micron filtration is not enough for sanding so went back to the metal bin type extractor idea.

 

[giantbeat]

would the twin motor Record Power DX4000 Dust Extractor 80L, 2000W be a far better choice?

 

[sploo]

i think i may have confused things by using the word "Vac" regarding my SIP, its a chip collector style extractor but with the .5 micron filter... just like the Record. im not talking about hooking the henry VAC up to 100mm, more connecting 100mm to the 2 chip collectors, one at each end of the pipe work.

i only use my Henry connected directly to my palm sanders dust port.

Got it - that's OK.

With regard to some of the other questions/suggestions in this thread: being able to run an extractor that vents (or is) outside is very useful (in the sense that removing the filters will increase airflow). That said, you can't do that with a model that draws the air through the motor (i.e. you really need an impeller based system).

As far as I understand, the filtration from single stage systems is probably not going to be effective; a coarse filter lets the dangerous stuff through, a fine filter doesn't, but it quickly gets clogged, and then you lose suction (and thus capture of fine dust). That's where cyclones are useful - albeit you need plenty of airflow.

Another option might be to get a power respirator such as the Trend Airshield, and possibly a cheap air filter such as http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... nds+dk6680

You wear the respirator to keep you safe during very dusty operations (sanding, routing MDF etc.), and run the filter to clean the air up during/afterwards.

Adequate capture of the finest (most dangerous) dust from machinery, and then filtering that air to a safe standard, and maintaining that level of suction/filtering is neither easy nor cheap I'm afraid.

 

[MattRoberts]

any suggestions to to what? upgrading isnt an issue within reason, its the space they take thats the problem! the room i have is 2m x 1.7m i need something compact.

Depends what your definition of compact is. I have a single garage, so I bought a 2hp extractor and built a thien baffle. It's pretty compact considering the power.

 

[giantbeat]

i think i may have confused things by using the word "Vac" regarding my SIP, its a chip collector style extractor but with the .5 micron filter... just like the Record. im not talking about hooking the henry VAC up to 100mm, more connecting 100mm to the 2 chip collectors, one at each end of the pipe work.

i only use my Henry connected directly to my palm sanders dust port.

Got it - that's OK.

With regard to some of the other questions/suggestions in this thread: being able to run an extractor that vents (or is) outside is very useful (in the sense that removing the filters will increase airflow). That said, you can't do that with a model that draws the air through the motor (i.e. you really need an impeller based system).

As far as I understand, the filtration from single stage systems is probably not going to be effective; a coarse filter lets the dangerous stuff through, a fine filter doesn't, but it quickly gets clogged, and then you lose suction (and thus capture of fine dust). That's where cyclones are useful - albeit you need plenty of airflow.

Another option might be to get a power respirator such as the Trend Airshield, and possibly a cheap air filter such as http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworkin ... nds+dk6680

You wear the respirator to keep you safe during very dusty operations (sanding, routing MDF etc.), and run the filter to clean the air up during/afterwards.

Adequate capture of the finest (most dangerous) dust from machinery, and then filtering that air to a safe standard, and maintaining that level of suction/filtering is neither easy nor cheap I'm afraid.

i had not thought of just using a respirator, i just acquired an older axminster air filter, though i original wanted to reduce the amount of dust kicking about the room (the 26" spinning sanding disk kicks it out big time), this might at least be the best option for keeping me safe.

thanks Sploo, looking at my space issue from another angle now.

 

[giantbeat]

any suggestions to to what? upgrading isnt an issue within reason, its the space they take thats the problem! the room i have is 2m x 1.7m i need something compact.

Depends what your definition of compact is. I have a single garage, so I bought a 2hp extractor and built a thien baffle. It's pretty compact considering the power.

as above my total space is a 2m x 1.7m booth mate, with some room under the down draft bench i mentioned, the rest of the space is taken by me, the osculating sander, the sanding disk & the bench.

i dont have the height for that sort of thing or i would have a large extractor & cyclone rigged up.

 

[CHJ]

Have a look at This old thread.

 

[MattRoberts]

Doris had a similar issue recently here : https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=ht ... are_type=t
Please Help Me Solve My Dust Problem Once and For All

 

[giantbeat]

Doris had a similar issue recently here : https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=ht ... are_type=t
Please Help Me Solve My Dust Problem Once and For All

thanks Matt, i think my best bet is 2 of the small metal drum extractors (as that's what i have space for) one hooked up to the bobbin sander permanently & the other with quick release fittings to i will swap between the other 2, i might get just the one larger 2 motor single machine when i have the spare cash.

i already have an air filter too

 

[giantbeat]

Have a look at This old thread.

i found that thread earlier just after your first reply, interesting & i wish i had room to fit or build something better... still wondering why record power suggest adding a extractor at ether end of a pipe run will vastly improve suction when all the info i can find from yourselves & elsewhere say that isnt the case.

im just going to run with one machine permanently hooked up & another on quick release to the 2 others... its the simplest option for now & one that i at lest know will work given that my machines all have 100mm outlets & one is currently working with the existing extractor anyway.

thanks for you help, i have at least started to grasp the very basics of dust extraction now.