Anybody know anything about old ploughs ? ...Alf ?

[Anonymous]

Got an old plough going. Posted a few sites looking for info.

Like to understand its history, besides the obvious I suppose. Mainly so I can sound clever when somebody asks me about it. :lol:

If anybody would know I'd imagine Alf would. ....

Just the Alex Matherson name again. No.5 (I think).....swear it looked like No.3 in the shed. But no.5 in the photo.

Wondering.....where was it made. Glascow's written on them sometimes yes ? ... but that doesn't necessarily mean it was made there I guess.

Also, like to understand the numbering system. Guessing No.1's were the smallest ?....this No.5 of mine cuts about a 30mm dado.... actually probably a bit more than that origionally.....to make it work I had to reduce its size.

Year ?...all that sort of stuff.

Appreciate any thoughts......(Alf when you get a chance.....only if your not busy uno :wink: )

 

[Alf]

Erm, I'll do my best. I'm a bit lacking in wooden plane info really, but I believe it's not a plough but rather a sash fillister for rebating the glazing bars on sash windows (if iirc). British Planemakers has a an illiustration from a Mathieson catalogue of 1899 with a whole range of them with different permutations of depth stop, fences, handled or not etc, the number being a model number rather than size. No #5 shown unfortunately, but there is a #3 which does look similar. As far as Alexander Mathieson & Son (Ltd) goes, they were one of the the most prolific makers, Alexander starting the firm in 1822 (later claimed 1792 simply because they'd bought up John Manners who had indeed started then - cunning devils!) and continuing until the 60s when Record bought them up - although apparently plane making ceased during WW2. Your mark is listed as after 1876, but I'm not aware of any way of getting more precise than that. As far as where they were made, well at various times they had works in Glasgow, Edinburgh (taking over J & W Stewart), Dundee (J Dryburgh) and Liverpool. There's also an Aberdeen mark listed. I'm sure someone else has better info than that though.

Nice rescue job btw - glad I'm not the only nutter in that respect. :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Alf. ... I'm not sure on the glazing bar bit though ....I can see how it could be used to rebate...... but the blade is so wide...... I didn't think windows got that big ? :lol: Honestly I just don't know. Maybe, there was an old technique they had for cutting the bar strips quickly, by ploughing and splitting the plough to form two rebated pieces simultaneously. (just guessing)

I don't think I'll personally ever have much use for plough this wide anyway.

But, I thought it may be useful one day for rebating this way, using the opposite reference edge to normal......ie. its depth stop is on the left side rather than the right......meaning unlike regular rebate planes, the rebate doesn't form on the edge your fence runs..... ( bit of effort to visualise I think. Confusing myself. )

Thanks again for the info, Alf.

Who thinks your a nutter anyway ? ....shame on them :wink:

 

[Alf]

Maybe, there was an old technique they had for cutting the bar strips quickly, by ploughing and splitting the plough to form two rebated pieces simultaneously. (just guessing)

I'm not sure if anyone's come up with the definitive way in which sash windows were made yet, but from The Dictionary of Woodworking Tools:

...when making sashes by hand, after setting out and cutting the mortices and the cheeks of the tenons, the rails and stiles are rebated and moulded on the Bench or in the Vice. The bars are usually worked on the Sticking Board. The glazing rabbet is worked with a Fillister Plane and the moulding stuck (i.e.moulded) on one side with the corresponding Sash Moulding Pane. The bar is then turned over and the other side worked in the same manner.

But, I thought it may be useful one day for rebating this way, using the opposite reference edge to normal......ie. its depth stop is on the left side rather than the right......meaning unlike regular rebate planes, the rebate doesn't form on the edge your fence runs..... ( bit of effort to visualise I think. Confusing myself. )

That's the beauty of them - you can rebate to leave a fixed width of remaining workpiece, not to create a fixed width of rebate, if you see what I mean. In the window making it meant the work didn't have to be all made precisely the same dimensions because you always work off the same face for both the rebate and moulding. If you'd had to work off the opposite face for the rebate, if the rails, stiles and glazing bars weren't spot on for width then the rebates wouldn't have matched up in depth either. Flippin' clever really.

Who thinks your a nutter anyway ? ....shame on them :wink:

Well no-one actually says as much - at least not often - but... 8-[ :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

Flippin' clever really.

I reakon.

Thanks for the discription....it all makes perfect sense except this..
...The bar is then turned over and the other side worked in the same manner.......

The question is. After its turned over, how did they jig it so it sat stable for cutting the second set of rebates and moulding ?.....uno, since the down side now has a profile and rebate in it.

Maybe they had a second sticking board with a step in it for the rebate to sit in ?...

I've made a couple of windows with a sash and plough plane. But not with a sticking board. What I'd do, so I can run my planes with stability is rip off the strips lastly.

ie. On a thicknessed board, I'd run the sash to form the profile on the edge...then run a plough (to form that rebated area)......then flip and do the same to the other side......then just rip off the bar (on the table saw )

But, I'm liking this old method better and will try next time.

Who thinks your a nutter anyway ? ....shame on them :wink:

Well no-one actually says as much - at least not often - but... 8-[ :lol:

Cheers, Alf

You don't fall into fits of maniacal (had to look that up ) laughter do you ? ....or talk to yourself (in the mirror ?) :wink:

Guessing its just the powertool heads giving you flak, yes ? .... I get that.

 

[Alf]

The question is. After its turned over, how did they jig it so it sat stable for cutting the second set of rebates and moulding ?.....uno, since the down side now has a profile and rebate in it.

Maybe they had a second sticking board with a step in it for the rebate to sit in ?...

As I understand it sticking boards often had all sorts of pins and grooves in help with different jobs; presumably one board with all the necessary sizes would be set up for repetitive tasks like window making? For the butterfly woodworking types amongst us I imagine you just make an alteration for the next job or whatever, until presumably there's no further room or the thing's threatening to fall apart. Sticking boards are one of those things I've never really got to grips with as I'd like to, although it's been on the Tuit list for years and years.

You don't fall into fits of maniacal (had to look that up ) laughter do you ? ....or talk to yourself (in the mirror ?) :wink:

Only when there's an R in the month.

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

Only when there's an R in the month.

Well, you have [or is that we have?...] a wait before your 4 month break... :lol:

I cannot help here, Jake. This is just a senseless post. I have made the rabbets using a fillister, a plow, and what was told me was a sash plow that was basically like a tongue plane. One difference was the twin irons, and one side was movable.

In effect it had twin fences which were adjusted to loosly capture the piece being rabbeted. The resultant tongue was in turn inserted into a stopped groove which ran down a board's edge. The molding plane then did the profile.

Take care, Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Only when there's an R in the month.

Well, you have [or is that we have?...] a wait before your 4 month break... :lol:

...yes....must have something to do with the cold.

Alf, I've been playing around with a version of sticking boards for a while. Found that a sticking board can be difficult to use sometimes. Since only one end is locked the other end can wiggle about a bit. Happens a bit with the very thin stock uno.

Thats why I've tried to find a why of locking both ends if possible. Really recommend doing something like it (or something that looks more visually appealing at least :lol: ) cause it opens up many options with your planes. Can work thin stuff without the fear the stock will slide about.

I tried to flog the idea here...
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... sh+scalers

I cannot help here, Jake. This is just a senseless post. I have made the rabbets using a fillister, a plow, and what was told me was a sash plow that was basically like a tongue plane. One difference was the twin irons, and one side was movable.

In effect it had twin fences which were adjusted to loosly capture the piece being rabbeted. The resultant tongue was in turn inserted into a stopped groove which ran down a board's edge. The molding plane then did the profile.

Take care, Mike

Sash plow ?.... Do you mean like a stanley 48 sort of thing.

two fences......you mean, one fence on either side of your work ?

I like that method though with the stopped groove....should stop moving it about.....guessing it be particularily good for thin glazing bars as well, that have a little flex in them.......be able to sit the tongue in a small groove right on the edge, so I can get that fence clearence for the moulding plane....I like small detailed bars holding stained glass you see.

Thanks Mike. (definetly not a senseless post mike )

 

[Alf]

Only when there's an R in the month.

Well, you have [or is that we have?...] a wait before your 4 month break... :lol:

...yes....must have something to do with the cold.

My loving family suggest I missed out "when there's a U in the month" as well... :roll:

To be honest, Jake, I just don't have your industry - I just bowl along doing as I've always done until I hit a snag and only then try something else. It's just sheer laziness really. I do have a proto-design of sticking board that I keep meaning to try out though, but it's the scarcity of Tuits holding up the works again.

Cheers, Alf