Any H&S legal type guru's out there? Need some advice.

[p111dom]

Just need a bit of advice. Items such as table saw Dado head cutters etc. While I don't want this to be a debate about the pros and cons, user safety and other methods of cutting the same thing, I am interested in the legality of using one. As a business employing people they are a no no as they fail to meet H&S rules. As a private individual employing no one, what is the legality of using one in this instance. Illegal to use or not?

 

[Ironballs]

From what I can gather you are allowed to use one, similarly machines that don't have braked motors that stop under 10secs. You should also be covered under your insurance, though it will say that you can have no one else in your workshop I would imagine.

Lots of one man band timber yards operate in this way as they can use older machinery that's cheaper to buy

 

[p111dom]

Tell you what is it. I've been accused of operating in an illegal way by making a cut on the table saw without the crown guard on. Its the way its being put so catagorically. Not "operating contrary to H&S rules" not "ill advised" or even "unsafely" but "illegally". The wording is a bit strong IMO especially towards a hobbyist, in his own home, not making furniture for profit and not employing anyone. I was wondering if this accusation is founded or not. Seems a bit OTT to me and could have/should have been put better. What do you think?

 

[CNC Paul]

Who made the accusation ?


Are you using a hold down device ?

 

[Doug B]

I was told, (So this may not be right), That you could not make a profit from any item that was made using a stacked dado.
So it isn`t breaking any rules using one, as a private individual, just if you are profiting from the by products of using one.

 

[billw]

"The Health and Safety Executive’s (HSE’s) aims are to protect the health, safety and welfare of people at work, and to safeguard others, mainly members of the public, who may be exposed to risks from the way work is carried out."

Their website spefically talks about work related situations, not hobbyists at home.

 

[BradNaylor]

If you are a hobbyist working at home it is most definitely not illegal to make a cut on a table saw without a guard. It's your machine, it's your workshop; you can do what you like so long as you're not affecting anyone else. The long arm of the law does not (yet) reach into a private individual's domain in this context. It is not against the law deliberately to cut one's own hand off. It might get you sectioned though!

I too am intrigued to know the identity of your accuser.

Incidentally, a sole trader working alone can, as far as I am aware, use a dado cutter, unguarded saw or unbraked machine in the course of his business. As soon as he employs anyone however, he is subject to all the relevent H&S legislation. This includes changing to limited company status, as then he becomes an employee of the company.

Cheers
Brad

 

[p111dom]

Thanks for the info. Don't want to say the accuser officially in print but its out in the public domain for those in the know. :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

If you are a hobbyist working at home it is most definitely not illegal to make a cut on a table saw without a guard. It's your machine, it's your workshop; you can do what you like so long as you're not affecting anyone else. The long arm of the law does not (yet) reach into a private individual's domain in this context. It is not against the law deliberately to cut one's own hand off. It might get you sectioned though!

I too am intrigued to know the identity of your accuser.

Incidentally, a sole trader working alone can, as far as I am aware, use a dado cutter, unguarded saw or unbraked machine in the course of his business. As soon as he employs anyone however, he is subject to all the relevent H&S legislation. This includes changing to limited company status, as then he becomes an employee of the company.

Cheers
Brad

I agree with Brad. If you're working alone in your shop as a hobbyist what you do is entirely up to the individual and H&S issues are of no legal concern. Jake may be the forum member to give you chapter and verse, but I'm fairly sure that what you're doing in no way can be viewed as illegal - Rob

 

[CNC Paul]

Thanks for the info. Don't want to say the accuser officially in print but its out in the public domain for those in the know. :wink:

Well I don't know!! Did you use a hold down ?

Just tell the busy body to go forth and multiply 8)

 

[Digit]

I looked this subject some time back, and granted that you wouldn't wish to quote Google in a court of law, but according to my reading any cutter up to 18mill wide is legal throughout the EU.
Quite how you get a 5/8 cutter that isn't a dado or wobble saw type I simply do not know.

Roy.

 

[newt]

Hmm I agree with all that is said you can do what you like, but it will not be long before things change I guess. An example is the crash helmet. We are in a nanny state I am afraid. Mind you a crash helmet is common sense I use one.

 

[yetloh]

The health and safety legislation is fundamentally about the protection of EMPLOYEES in the workplace. You can do what you like (!) in the privacy of your own workshop although you may have a liability to third parties if you are in any way negligent. Whether or not you are making a profit from whatever you are doing is irrelevant.

However, for me, it makes sense to stick to the Health and Safety rules in my workshop on the basis that these are put in place for very good and obvious reasons. I speak as someone who has successfully routed the ends off three fingers (very messy) not through consciously doing something hazardous but by failing to recognise the possible dangers in the method I was using. I am sure there is a lesson for may of us there.

Contrary to tabloid opinion there is, in general, very little wrong with the H&S regulations. Most ridiculous rulings made on H&S grounds are made by jobsworths who don't understand the requirements and are afraid of their own shadows (rant over).

Jim

 

[RogerS]

Thanks for the info. Don't want to say the accuser officially in print but its out in the public domain for those in the know. :wink:

You've got us all guessing. Hint. We need a hint :wink:

 

[head clansman]

Hi

Health & safety is for in and around you place of work it puts as much responsibility on your shoulders as it doe's the boss you can be both held legally responsible . first tell us who made this statement, & what prompted it , as other have said in your own home workshop if your not manufacturing something for someone else it does not apply, if your making a charge, hmm not sure how you stand there .


If you need to operate (any ) machine and the guard needs to be removed then the machine is not the correct one for doing what ever your doing on it, sound like the most your guilty off is operating your machine in your workshop for yourself with no crown guard on which for that alone you need a kick up the arse . so consider your arse kicked .

I don't want to start another debate here i have voiced my opinion on this subject before I'm sorry if My comment is a bit blunt but i hate to see people using machines for the wrong purpose. its been designed with a crown guard for a very good purpose, over the years there has been some very horrific accidents with people using a machine that it not intended to be used for. hc

 

[Digit]

I would add one qualifier to that if I may hc. The crown guard is for use where no other guard is in use IMO. For example, cross cut sled or other such with their own built in guard.
I must admit that my saw spends more time sans crown guard than fitted for that reason.
By the way, anyone remember Freud's ad showing a nail being cut by a T/S blade. Well they're right. I tested a piece of reclaimed Iroko for nails etc and it came up clean, the screw was brass!
Cut it as clean as a whistle, and I spend the next half hour removing the bits from my hand!

Roy.

 

[head clansman]

hi digit

bet that hurt ouch .

just as long as there some form of guard on it is all that really matters protect those digits excuse the pun mate , after all it take a lifetime to grow a set of digits , they won't grow again , will they :?: .hc

 

[Digit]

Regrettably not mate. One of the things that surprised me was how keen the surgeons were to remove two of my fingers after I'd trapped them in a machine.
We got down to me threatening to walk out of the hospital before they agreed to do what they could to repair the damage

Roy.

 

[head clansman]

hi digit

dare i ask how and where you trapped them :?: .hc

 

[Digit]

A plastic injection moulding machine. The guard safety switch, a micro switch, failed in the ON mode and the machine closed on my hand.

Roy.