Another old back-saw...dovetail? (pictures)

[o_LuCaS_o]

Hi!

Recently there has been some discussion about old saws on the forum, so I thought, I could put something in from myself. Some time ago I bought an old saw from eBay. It's a 10"/12TPI brass backed-saw with no makers markers on it. It looked like this:

It was blunt, barely cutting and not to good looking, so I thought, I'll try to make it a little nicer. I made a new handle out of a piece of birch I had in the pile. This is the first one I've ever made...as a matter of fact, I haven't done much yet I wanted to show i to you Guys and ask for Your opinion, what do You think about it, do You have any recommendations for future ones. I also have some questions upon making these...

As I mentioned, this was my first handle and I couldn't help myself not to make a few mistakes Of course, the biggest one was with the mortise for letting in the back and blade. As You can see on the picture below, I spoiled it a little (sic!).

I had a problem with getting the blade aligned with the holes and till I found out, that the problem was with the shape of the mortise, I made it too deep and also elongated the kerf for the blade The first time I repaired it, by gluing in a little portion of wood and the fit and griping was good. But then, the urge of perfection was so big, that in the end I resulted with with the tenon a little to wide and deep again. The worse was, that I found out after finishing the handle with oil and a few coats of paste wax. The fit was loose, to loose to use the saw. I didn't want to throw it away, because I've put so much work in it. To be able to use the saw, I made a little wedge out of a scrap of walnut and made a kerf in it. It fits nice and keeps the blade enough for using the saw (it gets loose some time, so I have to tap it in a bit). My wife said, that if I haven't mentioned it as a flaw, she would thought it's a special decorative feature The other mistake I'm aware of, was leaving too little stuff on the outer sides of the screw. What it caused was a little crack on the right side of the blade at the beveled curve under the back.

Then I sharpened the saw my first two times...two, because after the first time, the saw teeth points formed a beautiful example of a chaotic curve...it looks so easy on DVD's I made some test cuts in pine, birch and ash and I think it cuts not bad.

Please forgive me the poor sawing technique, this is just an example and I've never cut any dovetail yet, so don't have much experience. However, the saw is not an easy starter (probably because of the 12TPI and zero rake angle), it cuts quite fast and, I think, quite straight. Overall I'm quite happy with the appearance and working of the saw and I learnt a lot about shaping wood. What do You think?

I have a question about drilling the holes for the screws. I didn't want to use any machines and I drilled the counter bores with a brace and 1/2" bit. The problem is, that I couldn't get a flat bottom of the hole. I always got a part of a spiral at the bottom. I could clean it with a chisel a bit, but I think there must be a better way. How did a craftsman do it in the old days before the electric drill and Forstner bits? Are/where there Forstner bits for a brace? Maybe there is a different method. How do You do it?

I'm also wondering about the saw itself and it's purpose. By the look of it, one would say it's a dovetail saw. But what gives me a think are the 12TPI. When I look at dovetail saws made nowadays I don't see anything coarser than 14TPI, where Gramercy goes up to 19TPI, Lee Valley 20TPI. I also found this cite on Joel Moskowitz (sorry, but I can't place links with my account):

We figured out that most modern saws, even ones sold as dovetail saws, were copied from antiques that were used for general work, not dovetailing, and that a real 18th century dovetail saw would make dovetailing much, much easier

So maybe my saw is an example of one of those mis-named tools? What was considered as "general work" for a saw like this?

As I said...I learnt a lot with this little, probably very simple project for an intermediate craftsman, project. Shaping wood...ba! what fantastic things can turn out from a single little board, saw sharpening, mistake repairing, but also, that wanting to be too perfect is not always good Anyway...I recommend this kind of project for anyone who is thinking of it and has a nice example on his eye!

Regards,
Lukasz.

 

[pedder]

Hi Lukasz,

nice handle you've made!

The blade seems ton be rather thick for a dovetail saw, or there is too much set in the teeth.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[o_LuCaS_o]

Hi!

Thanks a lot for the good words, Pedder They make me especially happy, because I admire Your work, which I've seen on the Two Layers site!

The only set the blade has is the one I've put, because the teeth were jointed very high. I used a blue Somax saw set with the setting 12 dialed in. The thickness of the blade is 0.6mm, the spread of the teeth is between 0,74mm and 0,80mm in a few measured spots.

Regards,
Lukasz.

 

[pedder]

Hi Lukasz,

thank you for the kudos.

I think dovetail saws start at 0,5mm and 14tpi. so yours is a bit more than that. I've once replaced thicker blade wit a blade from a cheap gents saw. Worked good, because the spine was quite new. (If not I would use some Locktite 270.)

Most of the dovetails we sell have now a 0,3mm or a 0,4mm blade. They are not for the heavy handed sawyers, but they cut almost as nice as japanese saws.

Setting should be within 0,1mm for my taste. You can reduce seting on a thick blade by side dressing the saw with a stone.

Cheers Pedder

 

[jimi43]

Hi Lukasz

A wonderful job - made particularly impressive because it is your first one.

These old gems are definitely worth restoring to working condition...it is just a case of deciding if the steel is too far gone to take a new edge and set.

Pedder did a superb job of sharpening and setting my old lady....you are braver than me...doing it yourself...I think this is one art...best left to experts! :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[bugbear]

Pedder did a superb job of sharpening and setting my old lady....you are braver than me...doing it yourself...I think this is one art...best left to experts! :mrgreen:

Disagree - whilst it's extremely hard to do a perfect job, it's not too difficult to do quite well, as long as you've read up on the process.

The hardest part is your first fine-ish cross cut - there's quite a lot to keep in mind simultaneously.

Overall, I'd rate saw sharpening about as hard as hand planing a board accurately flat.

BugBear

 

[jimi43]

Pedder did a superb job of sharpening and setting my old lady....you are braver than me...doing it yourself...I think this is one art...best left to experts! :mrgreen:

Disagree - whilst it's extremely hard to do a perfect job, it's not too difficult to do quite well, as long as you've read up on the process.

The hardest part is your first fine-ish cross cut - there's quite a lot to keep in mind simultaneously.

Overall, I'd rate saw sharpening about as hard as hand planing a board accurately flat.

BugBear

What I actually meant BB was..it is an art that I would rather leave to the experts. :wink:

Jim

 

[pedder]

Pedder did a superb job of sharpening and setting my old lady....you are braver than me...doing it yourself...I think this is one art...best left to experts! :mrgreen:

Disagree - whilst it's extremely hard to do a perfect job, it's not too difficult to do quite well, as long as you've read up on the process.

The hardest part is your first fine-ish cross cut - there's quite a lot to keep in mind simultaneously.

Overall, I'd rate saw sharpening about as hard as hand planing a board accurately flat.

BugBear

Hi Paul,

I agree. The biggest problem for the occasional saw sharpener is, that he has not training.

For my taste, better than the write ups is a saw sharpening video. I like the one from Chris Gochnour: http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAn ... x?id=24976

Just skip that "every other tooth" part and file one tooth direct after the other.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[o_LuCaS_o]

Hello!

Thank You all for the responses! For sure training will get one better in sharpening. The things that I was surprised with, where things that look very simple and obvious on video, even primitive sometimes, but required a lot, or at least some attention. I.e. jointing carelessly may generate a convex egde, just like planning (as BB mentioned). Also the sharpener must really stick to filing half of the flat on each tooth, otherwise you get the big tooth, small tooth pattern. I found this quite hard to do, because the flats are small, it's not that easy to judge, when you achieve the half. Of course, all the feeling probably comes with experience

Oh...and one very important thing. Proper seeing what one is doing and has done is very important, in my opinion. Good lighting and a way to mark your progress. I don't recommend machinists blue.

Pedder, do You use an oilstone to remove some set or burrs from the teeth? I read on Mr. Wenzloffs site to use only oilstones for this task. I don't have any, just waterstones. Are they not suitable for the job?

Regards,
Lukasz.

 

[pedder]

Hi Lucasz,

I mostly use sand paper 1000g around a a piece of granit for side dressing. Waterstones get deep scratches.

For rip cutting saws with fleam 0° a few well established saw sharpener* and me supose not to file each other tooth, turn around the saw and file each other tooth, but to file all teeth from one side and one after each other. No big tooth small tooth problem any more.

I sometimes use some paint to color the gullets before setting. This is getting hard to see on pitches smaller than 18tpi.

Cheers
Pedder

*Andrew Lunn (Eccentric toolworks), Ed Paik (Medaillon tools) Leif Hanson aka Norsewoodsmith, Marv Werner - Look at Andrew's blog: http://eccentrictoolworks.com/2010/06/1 ... ams-razor/