And I chose Makita batteries...
- Thread starter pe2dave
- Start date
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It is the fact that by using common components you produce products with a common look, so a single cordless tool platform would mean all tools being manufactured to accomodate this battery. The solution might be that all OEM's worked together to produce the tool and battery but then if all tools were the same then some of the OEM's would cease to exist and with less OEM's and competition inthe market prices would rise.
pe2dave
Established Member
Again I beg to differ Roy? Switching to a common battery (physical battery size, connection type, firmware interface are the necessary changes).
That does not (in my mind) necessitate all e.g. drills look alike, perform alike etc?
Two (3 maybe) mouldings, connector spec, software change. No more?
Battery cost logic - If there was a standard for tool batteries, anyone could make those batteries. People would buy batteries on cost rather than being tied into having to buy batteries from a single supplier. That would lead to lower prices. Prices should be lower just because there are more options available within the marketplace. That's the way markets work.
However there is another consideration: If you are a battery tool manufacturer, when you work out the pricing you probably have a calculation which is something along the lines of: "when someone buys a battery tool I will expect over the life of the tool to sell them 2 to 3 batteries, so my income will be bare tool + (3 x batteries). So say each is £50 (for example a basic drill with 4AH batteries), that's £200 income over the life of tool.
At the moment, there is some incentive to hide the longer running cost by dropping the initial cost - which is what most people look at when thinking of buying a tool - and then look to recover the lower cost by bumping up the renewalables cost. So for example, you could sell the base unit for £40, and still gain the £200 total by increasing the battery cost to £53.33. That is likely to result in more sales without losing long term income.
However, if anyone can make the batteries that calculation goes out of the window. If the tool manufacturer can no longer rely on getting income from the batteries they will need to get more income from the tool itself.
To understand that perhaps we need to add another couple of numbers - cost of manufacture and profit. Let's start by assuming that it costs the manufacturer £40 to make each product. If they sell at £50 that's £10 profit per item. So for £200 income recouped by the manufacturer over the life of the tool and its batteries, they make £40 profit. But that's assuming they are sure to get the income from the battery sales!
If the manufacturer is to maintain the £40 profit from the total tool sale when they cannot guarantee income from the batteries their only option is to try to get more profit from the initial tool sale. The easiest way to maintain the £40 profit while competing in the open battery sales market will be to push the price of tool up to near £80, and the batteries price down to close to £40.
Therefore one outcome of cheaper batteries is likely to be more expensive tools. Though it is also worth pointing out that the overall cost to the customer (tool plus batteries) will be the same. Personally I'd prefer the cost to be more upfront with less of what I'm paying to the manufacturer being hidden in inflated consumable costs.
However there is another consideration: If you are a battery tool manufacturer, when you work out the pricing you probably have a calculation which is something along the lines of: "when someone buys a battery tool I will expect over the life of the tool to sell them 2 to 3 batteries, so my income will be bare tool + (3 x batteries). So say each is £50 (for example a basic drill with 4AH batteries), that's £200 income over the life of tool.
At the moment, there is some incentive to hide the longer running cost by dropping the initial cost - which is what most people look at when thinking of buying a tool - and then look to recover the lower cost by bumping up the renewalables cost. So for example, you could sell the base unit for £40, and still gain the £200 total by increasing the battery cost to £53.33. That is likely to result in more sales without losing long term income.
However, if anyone can make the batteries that calculation goes out of the window. If the tool manufacturer can no longer rely on getting income from the batteries they will need to get more income from the tool itself.
To understand that perhaps we need to add another couple of numbers - cost of manufacture and profit. Let's start by assuming that it costs the manufacturer £40 to make each product. If they sell at £50 that's £10 profit per item. So for £200 income recouped by the manufacturer over the life of the tool and its batteries, they make £40 profit. But that's assuming they are sure to get the income from the battery sales!
If the manufacturer is to maintain the £40 profit from the total tool sale when they cannot guarantee income from the batteries their only option is to try to get more profit from the initial tool sale. The easiest way to maintain the £40 profit while competing in the open battery sales market will be to push the price of tool up to near £80, and the batteries price down to close to £40.
Therefore one outcome of cheaper batteries is likely to be more expensive tools. Though it is also worth pointing out that the overall cost to the customer (tool plus batteries) will be the same. Personally I'd prefer the cost to be more upfront with less of what I'm paying to the manufacturer being hidden in inflated consumable costs.
Desktop printers and ink !
pe2dave
Established Member
Not sure why you assume I'd buy a 'berts battery' rather than a Makita battery (compliant with the standard)?
I know which manufacturer I'd prefer to buy from.
Absolutely. And not just desktop printers - It's almost cheaper to buy a new printer than replace the consumables in my laser printer.
I understand that currently. The generic batteries I've tried have been rubbish.
However, imagine if there was a standard tool battery and a specialist battery manufacturer got involved. What if there was a Duracell battery for your Makita. Would you still be so wedded to the Makita batteries?
pe2dave
Established Member
Good point. I'd certainly think about that... Which might address the competition (within a standard) that has been put forward as a reason for 'not' having a standard?
Would most here think about 'daffy daves' batteries? Not if you were a serious user surely?
Or another consideration - what if it turned out DeWalt batteries lasted longer than Makita ones! Would you be too bothered about buying DeWalt, or Milwalkee batteries for your Makita tool?
Personally, I use DeWalt bit holder and Milwalkee bits in my Makita Impact Driver. It would be great to have the same freedom of choice in all my consumables.
Personally, I use DeWalt bit holder and Milwalkee bits in my Makita Impact Driver. It would be great to have the same freedom of choice in all my consumables.
Mafell and Festool are professional tools aimed at professional users. You arent going to find either doing a cordless combi drill and an impact driver for £99 inc 2 batteries.
Completely different market
pe2dave
Established Member
Not sure I can see a manufacturer changing direction totally for the sake of a battery? No need.
Tossing this into the debate :
Maybe there is a layer of "standardisation" going on in batteries already.
The major brands latest generation batteries all use a very limited range of cells.
Arguably the highest performance cell from which powertool batteries are assembled is the the Samsung INR 21700 40T.
These are the cells used by Dewalt in their 8 and 12Ah flexvolt packs,
by Hercules (a house brand of one of the American DIY chains)
by Ryobi
by Ridgid
by Bosch in the proCore packs
If the different brands are using the same cells, there isn't a lot of room to squeeze extra performance from them. Dewalt flexvolt allow the cells to be switched between an 18v and a 36v config. Bosch have their red plastic coolpack design that better conducts waste heat from inside the pack and helps keep the cells from overheating in use.
I dug this info out while reading up on the latest "tabless" cells and how these improve performance in high demand tools like cordless angle grinders.
Milwaukee use Samsung INR 21700 40 (not the 40T) in their 8 and 12Ah packs.
I don't know which cells Makita use.
Torque Test Channel do good reviews.
Maybe there is a layer of "standardisation" going on in batteries already.
The major brands latest generation batteries all use a very limited range of cells.
Arguably the highest performance cell from which powertool batteries are assembled is the the Samsung INR 21700 40T.
These are the cells used by Dewalt in their 8 and 12Ah flexvolt packs,
by Hercules (a house brand of one of the American DIY chains)
by Ryobi
by Ridgid
by Bosch in the proCore packs
If the different brands are using the same cells, there isn't a lot of room to squeeze extra performance from them. Dewalt flexvolt allow the cells to be switched between an 18v and a 36v config. Bosch have their red plastic coolpack design that better conducts waste heat from inside the pack and helps keep the cells from overheating in use.
I dug this info out while reading up on the latest "tabless" cells and how these improve performance in high demand tools like cordless angle grinders.
Milwaukee use Samsung INR 21700 40 (not the 40T) in their 8 and 12Ah packs.
I don't know which cells Makita use.
Torque Test Channel do good reviews.
Mafell also collab with Starmix on their extractors.
German brands usually work in conjunction with each other.
It’s my impression that Metabo are (or were) the leaders in the battery market regarding quality of product.
Mafell also use the Metabo drill platform for thier range of hand drills.
Metabo also used to have the most powerful battery operated hand drill, by quite some way (in Newton metres), until Fein matched it.
I use german made Fein hand drills. The fit in the hand is sublime and I want to supoort the company. I really like the vibration damping on their multi tool.
I always try to support Uk and European brands if possible.
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pe2dave
Established Member
Performance can vary widely within any standard. IMHO the customer 'definition' of standards
will be the interchangeability and shared charger?
If you open the lack up and it’s full of samsung 18650’s, it’s going to generally be on the higher end of the quality spectrum.
Sounds like a good idea, if the price is right.
Having had Bosch, AEG, and Ryobi batteries all fail rather quickly I went for Makita for my last drill. Over 12 years later the original battery is still working well. More recently I wanted an impact driver and should logically have gone for a Makita but I saw a really good deal at Toolstation on a DeWalt so I bought that. It was only a bit more expensive with a charger and two batteries than a bare unit from Makita.
Having had Bosch, AEG, and Ryobi batteries all fail rather quickly I went for Makita for my last drill. Over 12 years later the original battery is still working well. More recently I wanted an impact driver and should logically have gone for a Makita but I saw a really good deal at Toolstation on a DeWalt so I bought that. It was only a bit more expensive with a charger and two batteries than a bare unit from Makita.
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