American cherry veneer question

[OldWood]

I've got sufficient wood from section of a UK cherry tree for all of the construction work for a Viennese clock case but I'm not so sure about the backboard. Fancy says some thin t&g boards if there is enough wood - logic says veneer on 6mm ply.

If I go the latter route I've two queries - will American cherry veneer match adequately as I suspect that is all I will be able to get, and secondly should I balance the ply with veneer on the back face and what sort?

Many thanks

OW

 

[woodbloke]

Short answer is no...UK cherry and 'murrican cherry look totally different. The balancing veneer on the back can be anything you like, cheaper the better...a few leaves of bookmatched rosewood :shock: ought to do the trick :wink: :lol: - Rob

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Remember Garrett Hack highlighting the differences between samples grown a few dozen leagues apart.
Does English cherry show as much variation in colour as tea salters' cherry?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... logic says veneer on 6mm ply.

If I go the latter route I've two queries - will American cherry veneer match adequately as I suspect that is all I will be able to get, and secondly should I balance the ply with veneer on the back face and what sort?
OW

You are unlikely to get a perfect match as the grain characteristics are somewhat different. How important this is to you is likely to depend upon the visibility of the panel and how concerned you are to achieve a near perfect match.

It is difficult enough to get an exact match between woods of the same species where you are mixing solid wood with veneered panels. This is because veneer is cut from the very best logs available; the best solid wood planks generally come from the next grade down.

A balance veneer is very desirable, and in many cases crucial. There are some cases where a balancing veneer is not needed, eg, most drawer fronts. In your case I suggest you include a balance veneer. In broad terms, the exact species is not critical as long as the balance veneer is approximately the same cut, eg, crown or radially cut, and the thickness is similar, eg, 0.6± mm veneer on both sides of the panel. Slainte.

 

[Derek Willis.]

Tell me this a daft answer if you like, but, if you have the cherry why not cut your own veneers?
Seems to me to be the answer to all of your problems.
Derek.

 

[OldWood]

Tell me this a daft answer if you like, but, if you have the cherry why not cut your own veneers?
Seems to me to be the answer to all of your problems.
Derek.

Daft question then - how !!

It's a nice idea if it was practical - the cherry I have is a section of an old tree and is going to be an interesting challenge to process, even for the small sections for a clock case. To consider getting some sort of veneer out of it is probably going a bit too far. I would actually think I am more likely to get some narrowish planks instead for the backboard.

OW

 

[Rknott2007]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4i_NnPFUF ... annel_page

This should cover making veneer

 

[Derek Willis.]

Cut your veneer on a bandsaw, 1mm. or a little more is o/k.
You can join the veneer if it is not big enough, all very simple really.
Derek.

 

[OldWood]

Thanks guys - nice link to YouTube. My mate has a bandsaw - I see it's going to be useful!

OW

 

[Derek Willis.]

Oldwood,
Once you have cut your veneer, use contact adhesive, or spray on adhesive to fix, there are other methods, but, for the beginner this is the best way.
Derek.

 

[OldWood]

Oldwood,
Once you have cut your veneer, use contact adhesive, or spray on adhesive to fix, there are other methods, but, for the beginner this is the best way.
Derek.

That's me damned then - 'a beginner' !! You're right of course, Derek - I could go and get lessons from my cabinet maker brother but then he's a professional, some distance away and you know what male (and sibling) pride is like !!

OW

 

[Derek Willis.]

Old wood,
We are only here to suggest, the rest is up to you.
Derek.

 

[woodbloke]

Oldwood,
Once you have cut your veneer, use contact adhesive, or spray on adhesive to fix, there are other methods, but, for the beginner this is the best way.
Derek.

I wouldn't use contact adhesive for veneering...OK for fixing down Formica laminate sheet but not for a solid wood veneer. Use a D3 or D4 water resistant PVA glue or a urea formaldehyde (the old Cascamite as was) after which it'll need to be pressed. You can use lots of cramps and cauls (I've done this in the past with smaller stuff) but I now use a vacuum bag which gives over 2000lbs pressure per sq foot. The waterproof or resistant glue is needed 'cos if you join leaves together using tape, water and a scourer is needed to remove it...so best not to use original Titebond and if you do need to join leaves together, a veneer shoot is a 'must have' to give yourself a fighting chance of making a good joint. Veneering looks easy, but there's a lot to it :wink: - Rob

 

[Derek Willis.]

Then I suppose all the veneering I have done is useless, also the joinery shop down the road that veneers doors and uses spray contact adhesive is in the same boat.
Derek.

 

[woodbloke]

Then I suppose all the veneering I have done is useless, also the joinery shop down the road that veneers doors and uses spray contact adhesive is in the same boat.
Derek.

Not at all Derek. Spraying contact adhesive (which I doubt it is) to both surfaces as an industrial process will give a very thin layer of glue to each side which is something that can't be done at home with a toothed spreader (generally what's used with a contact adhesive) I use a toothed spreader for D3 adhesive but this is squashed out under pressure to make an even film with no 'bleed through' onto the show surface of the veneer (something to be avoided at all costs). Impact adhesive also has a certain amount of movement or rubberiness even when set which again is something not needed.
If the doors you mention are glued my hunch is that they'll go straight into a heated press under great pressure so that the bond appears instant, (certainly no more than a few minutes if the press is set up correctly)...so that it looks like a contact adhesive but it's a specific industrial adhesive suitable for veneering
If it's of any help to others I'll do sort of tutorial thread later on basic veneering and how I do it - Rob

 

[seanybaby]

If it's of any help to others I'll do sort of tutorial thread later on basic veneering and how I do it - Rob

That would be fantastic Rob But can you do it without using your bagpress?

I use a heated press and bagpress at work for flat a and curved stuff, but at home have neither of these. I have been experimenting with PVA onto both surfaces, letting it dry and then ironing them together. It works relatively ok, but i have had a few bubbles. These have been very small panels though.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I'm no expert at veneering, but I'd be inclined not to use contact adhesive for veneering if the piece was intended to last a long time. I've had problems in the past with photographs mounted with Cow Gum and laminates glued down with good quality contact adhesives (Evo Stik and Thixofix) separating from the substrate after several years. I think that after several years the adhesive totally dries out and loses all its adhesive properties.

I think I would go with hammer veneering with animal glue.

If it's of any help to others I'll do sort of tutorial thread later on basic veneering and how I do it

That would be very helpful, Rob - I've never seen a vacuum bag in operation.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

I'll sort something out over the weekend then. I'll veneer a couple of small panel by joining two leaves together, one panel I'll put in the AirPress and the other I'll do using cauls and G cramps - Rob

 

[Mattty]

I've done a lot of veneering using contact adhesive and without problem, however the veneer was the large pre jointed type which comes with a thin paper backing. I would suggest most shop fitting firms still use this method, either hand applying the contact adhesive or spraying it. I haven't tried veneering normal leaf with contact adhesive i imagine it would be difficult?

Using normal sheet veneer, like Rob says i would use PVA. I personally wouldn't use a Cascamite type glue as i have seen problems resulting from it after a few years. It sounds like Rob is going to do a write up for his technique.

Animal glue type is probably best avoided as it takes a good while to get to grips with the technique and you would need to spend a few quid on kit before you start. It stinks too!

 

[OldWood]

Is there any reason why I can't use hot glue ? I haven't used it for a long time - all interior joinery was hot glue in the 50/60's in my father's workshop, and cascamite for exterior work.

OW