Advice on first scroll saw please?

[goose]

Hi Folks,
I have been doing some looking into getting a scroll (fret) saw for some model making.
I want to make some wargames scenery pieces for my 28mm (1/56 scale) gaming and recently borrowed a copy of " The New Scroll Saw Handbook by Patrick Spielman" from our library. The only problem is the models the books discusses are a bit dated and mostly US models thus I would appreciate some enlightened assitance and guidance..

I want to be able to make some fairly precise cuts and centre cuts such as windows and doorways from foam and 6mm mdf and some resin sections.

So far from the book and general reading up, i am after a scroll saw with the following properties if, and hopefully someone can point out any i might have missed..

1. Ability to take plain ended blades, not just pin ends.
2. Dust blower (will be working indoors, so a vacume attachment point would be a plus).
3. 16" or so throat.
4. option to change blade direction for infinite cutting length in case of longer pieces.
5. Variable speed control.
6. Quick and easy blade change function.

I of course want to spend the least that I can, but I believe in making a reasonable investment if the product will last.
I am fairly sure, though primarily I plan to cut model building sections with it, I know I will put it to other use as time goes on.

Advice and views etc greatfully appreciated.. thanks..

John

 

[Gill]

Hi John

Welcome to the forum .

If you choose a scroll saw with a throat of 16 inches, then working to 1/56 scale you should be able to cut to a representative depth of 74 feet. I should imagine that would meet most of your needs. If you require longer cuts you would probably be better off using a jigsaw or router. Once you start cutting large boards on a scroll saw you will have problems with accuracy because you simply can't get physically close enough to the blade. This will make it difficult to ensure the blade is following your pattern line. Moreover, swinging large panels on the saw's table will test your dexterity. It is possible to do this (I've cut a 36 inch panel before on a Diamond fret saw) but it is very challenging.

I bought my Diamond from a toy maker who was retiring. He bought it brand new and only used it a couple of times over a period of several years because the dolls houses he produced were normally cut from MDF using a router following templates he had made. There are plenty of books on making dolls houses and other miniatures which describe router techniques that could easily be adjusted for working at smaller scales. Perhaps it would be worth looking into these methods before deciding to purchase a scroll saw.

Practically all modern scroll saws have five of the six qualities you've outlined, although very few have the facility to rotate a blade in its holder so as to enable you to present your work sideways. I only know of the Diamond, which is a heavy duty saw and is no longer manufactured, although second hand machines do appear in online auctions. That said, my knowledge of the market isn't as current as it used to be, so perhaps somebody else will be able to to advise us if there is another saw which has the facility to rotate blades.

Nowadays, it is possible to buy spiral blades which cut in all directions. I've heard these can be difficult to control but they would be a potential solution to the problem of not having a saw with rotating blade holders.

Gill

 

[goose]

Hi Gill, thanks for the comments.
The likley hood is as you point out, that I would rarely need to cut anthing longer than about 12".. so point 4. could be ignored.. but would be nice to have if possible.

I have looked at routers and jig saws but its the neatness of cut i want.
The main use I envisage is shaping ruined building wall section in mdf and cutting out windows and door ways. All of which i can presently do with a coping saw. But its timely, not as neat and a lot of effort.
Some of the models I have designed have nearly 20 window openings so hand cutting would take an awfol lot of time. Hence my interest in a scroll saw. A router would be hard to work on the smaller items from my past experience. Thus I arrived at a scroll saw.

So any currently available models out there that are not too pricey?

 

[chrispuzzle]

Hi goose

I see on Google that Toolstation claims to have the SIP 01373 at just under £70 which seems like a decent deal to me. It won't do rotating but good spiral blades ought to do the job for you, especially if your long lines involve one side of the cut being waste material so you can leave a bit of wiggle room for sanding. Not so easy to control large boards, as Gill says.

If that's too expensive you would need to take pot luck at the bottom end of the market or try and find something better second hand on eBay. Secondhand, names to look for are Hegner, Delta and Diamond. You're unlikely to see a Dewalt (and if you did, it would likely cost you).

Any saw you buy will most likely cut better for being attached to a heavy base, a concrete slab or a proper stand, or even bolted to a substantial workbench. Vibration is your enemy with precision work and that is where the cheapest saws tend to fall down.

With all those windows you will want a saw with quick change clamps so you don't spend all your time fiddling with blades. You'll also be practising techniques for cutting sharp corners and straight lines! - neither are very easy on a scrollsaw as the blade has a natural bias and turning a corner tends to leave a rounded angle (the trick is to cut to a point, back off, and then cut to the point from a fresh position).

 

[scroller frank]

Hi Goose,
What Gill & Chrispuzzel said !!!
i have only ever used a Delta , it has a very quick change blade chuck
and if ,as you are, cutting out many windows , blade clamps that need tools ,are a real P.I.T.A. :roll:
some people seem to have trouble whit the Delta chuck , but mine is 12 yrs old now, and as long as i change the little 4m bolt as soon as it bends it is ok,
ebay is a good place to start looking. avoid the cheapo's as they try to "walk" about a lot ,

 

[DaveL]

Hi Goose,

Where are you, any where near Sudbury Suffolk?

I have an Axminster saw that needs a little work to sort it out that is sitting unused in my shop.

 

[goose]

Dave, sadly no where near suffolk.. I am based in North Wales, just on the cheshire border region. So a bit of trip..

 

[goose]

I have been offered a Delta Scroll Saw, well used by a local craftmans who is shutting up shop.
I can struggling to find info on the delta range. Is it worth considering, and does any happen to have some info on their ranges.

Cheers John.

 

[Gill]

They used to be the standard 'introductory/intermediate' scroll saw until Delta pulled out of the UK. They're still retailed in France, though.

I wouldn't pay much if it's been "well used" or if it's a single or two speed model as opposed to a variable speed machine. After all, you can buy a brand new variable speed SIP for less than £100.

Incidentally, if you're interested in a second hand saw, it might be worth looking at what's currently available on eBay .

Gill

 

[goose]

Cheers Gill.. I have done some reading up on them on various forums.
At the right price might be a good machine to get started, but as you say, the SIPs look good too at their price for what you get. Will check out flea bay, but watched one saw go for more second hand, than I could buy it for delivered new.. :roll:

Will keep my eyes open. Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

 

[goose]

Alas the delta I looked at was a NO Go.

Can someone tell me if the SIP uses blade adapters for plain ended blades or does it have thumb screw type clamps? Ie how easy is it to change a blade as I plan to do a fair bit of centre cut.
I don't want to risk buying a super cheap tiawan type, and get frustrated with blade changing and breakages, but then again I don't want to spend a fortune either on the likes of Hegners.. as nice and well made that they are..

 

[scroller frank]

Hi goose,
Don' know about sip blade clamps !
but if the delta is cheap--- i bought my last one for £25.00 ----buy it !!!
( it can be fixt ) my first one is 12 years old , well used ,and i still use it more than the variable speed one.

 

[Brucio]

Hello Goose. The SIP blade holders grip pinless blades in the same slot as pinned blades. The holders have a little "V" in the top for pinned blades, and have a hex bolt on the side for pinless blades. The saw comes with a plastic handled long hex key for that bolt.
If you're going to do a lot of intricate cut outs, I suggest you get a few extra spare bolts, because the head tends to wear, and you can't tighten the clamps enough to grip the blade. These bolts are only about 25p each.
You can't put the blades in at 90 degrees, to cut stuff longer than the throat (16"), but there's a video on Youtube of someone in the USA with a little tip.
With the blade in place, he bends it sideways slightly with a pair of pliers, top and bottom. This means the blade is cutting at about 20 degrees to straight-on, and you may be able to cut lengths longer than the throat.
Other than that, the SIP is a fine saw, as I've posted a few times about it.
Bruce

 

[goose]

What costs lines should I be looking at for a second hand single speed or variable speed hegner? I know knew they are very pricey, but do they depreciate at speed, or due to quality/rep etc, do they hold their value.?

And lastly would a single speed model be suitable for a begginer such as myself.?

Cheers in advice..

 

[Gill]

It sounds as if you're reluctant to look at a saw such as a SIP; if you could tell us why, we might be able to offer further advice.

Your best guide to the value of any saw is eBay. It's difficult to gauge depreciation or estimate the value of a second hand saw. There will be some saws which are in excellent condition at an apparently bargain price because the owner has tried to use it a couple of times and just couldn't get on with it. There will also be saws looking battle-scarred because their owners haven't been able to resist their lure. My personal choice would be to go for the battle-scarred saw, especially if its manufacturer has facilities to service it. This was where Diamonds scored so heavily and although their manufacturer is no longer with us, most local engineers should be able to maintain them. HegnerUK, of course, has service facilities in Hailsham which I can recommend from personal experience.

I started off with a single speed Hegner 1 and I was perfectly happy with it for general scrolling. However, I wanted to cut fine veneers for marquetry and that saw splintered them! I thought a variable speed machine would enable me to slow the cutting stroke rate and cut less aggressively, so I upgraded to a variable speed Hegner 2. (It still decimated the veneers and it wasn't until I learned about zero-clearance tables that I began to cut veneers with a modicum of success.) I found the variable speed allowed me to refine my cutting technique for different projects. It's difficult to describe exactly how this worked because projects can be so different. For instance, if I was cutting something fine like a plywood jigsaw, I'd want to go slowly; if I was cutting something substantial like compound cut 3cm ash, I might want to go more quickly. Much would depend on the blades I was using and the material I was cutting.

With hindsight, I reckon a good quality single speed machine was perfectly adequate for my needs although I didn't recognise it at the time. I know an elderly lady who has been cutting simple plywood shapes for years with a single speed Hegner 1 which she sells at craft fairs - her saw looks even older and more battle-scarred than mine!

I can't tell you which saw would be right for you but I hope these reminiscences might be helpful.

Gill

 

[goose]

Hi Gill,
I have absalutely nothing against the SIP.
I delayed buying due to finances, and then toolstation had run out.. (dough!..).
But as of lunch time today, I now own a second hand Hegner single speed. Its old, got a few paint chips a slightly bent tension adjuster rod ( five min fix with a little heat applied) but otherwise in perfect working order.
From upper arm accessories, I believe it to be an early Multicut 1, so base model.

I had to drive down to meet up with the previous owner half way down the country on the M5..lol.. but for the price, even with petrol it was in my view well worth it.

I was going to go for the SIP, as I was convinced I needed a multispeed, but I had a good old think on it and I am sure I can survive with my single speed hegner.

Sadly no quick change thumb nut/blade mount inc, so that I will have to probably grab from Hegner direct. The air supply I am sure will need re-routing as it blow from behind the blade forward and this strikes me as daft, as it puts the dust in my face. And as I will be cutting MDF, I don't fancy that.

It came with a array of blades in a red pouch, some dust and not a lot else..lol..

I am going to take a trip to a local metal worker and ask him to cut me some 2" steel plate to as a base weight for it. (it was lighter than i had imagined. I don't have space in my working area to permenantly bolt it down, so will bolt to the base weight and mount on a folding stand, so can be put away when not in use. The base weight should help kill unwanted vibes. Or so my thinking goes.

By the way.. they are a LOT smaller in real life, than the images portray on the websites etc..lol.

Now I have the saw, my first model building sections were cut before christmas on a mates works bandsaw, I can now start on my first projects.. center cutting windows in the MDF model building walls.

I do fancy having a go at a puzzle or two.

Your comments Gill regarding the single speed are encouraging. I suspect this machine will indeed be perfectly adequate for me needs and uses.

 

[Gill]

Thanks for the update, Goose. Your new machine sounds very much like the one I started out with and I'm confident it will meet your needs admirably. It may not have the most modern accoutrements, but the benefit of having a solid machine will stand you in good stead.

It will be interesting to see what you can produce with your new saw; don't be shy about showing us what it can make.

Gill

 

[goose]

Thanks Gill, indeed, I think it should do very well for my needs.
I will indeed post some photos once I have got it established.

The first thing for me, is the antivibration base. I used to work with vaccume pumps and luckily have a bit of experience here, so some rubber compound sheeting and a 2" solid steel plate should give me a good base I am hoping as I cannot permenantly bolt it down.


I am fairly sure it is going to take a bit of practise to get anything near a good finish and the right blade/setup. So looking forward to that.

I really appreciate the help and views on here, so big thankyou.

Cheers

John

 

[Gill]

...so some rubber compound sheeting and a 2" solid steel plate should give me a good base...

Discussions of anti-vibration measures crop up on this forum quite regularly. If you search back, I'm sure you'll find many threads on the topic but this one about a vibrating Axminster covers it quite nicely. It may come as a surprise to learn there's a consensus amongst scrollers that rubber matting actually exacerbates vibration!

Gill

 

[goose]

Hi Gill,
Thanks,, will have a read with interest.

Cheers
John