Accoya for a front door

[Steve Maskery]

My bro lives in an old house, part of it 1644. It's Listed. It belongs to his Partner.

The front door was replaced less than 10 years ago, but is already failing. It is very exposed and gets sun, wind rain, pestilence and plague.

The frame was not replaced and that is part of the problem.

Needless to say, it's a non-standard size.

Bro wants to make a replacement that will last, require little or preferably no maintenance and won't cost much. I've told him to look in the corner, behind the pile if Hens' Teeth.

Partner wants it made of oak, because oak is traditional, solid and classy, but I'm the second person to tell her that is not a good idea if she needs to paint it.

I've said that Russian Redwood would be a good choice. I've also been looking at Accoya. I've never used it.

Q's.

Would Accoya be a good choice? How big a price differential is there?

In a previous thread about doors, Sheffield Tony says there is a minimum density for materials, but I can't find any other mention of this.

I've told Bro & Partner to ask their BCO and Conservation Officer, but they are reluctant...

Any comments, please chaps?

 

[Marineboy]

Whatever he decides to do about the door, he needs to make some kind of canopy above it to keep the worst of the weather off it

 

[Steve Maskery]

That's not an option, unfortunately, it would definitely fall foul of the Conservation rules.

 

[Shaven]

Approved document Q Appendix B. 600kg/m3 density requirement for security purposes.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... Q_2015.pdf

 

[Doug B]

If they do opt for Accoya Steve Craig can source it, I’ve asked him about it for some gates I have to make, if that helps

 

[Steve Maskery]

Thanks Doug.

Interesting paragraph in that document:

Note that there may be other ways to comply with the requirements - there is no obligation to adopt any particular solution contained in an approved document. If you prefer to meet a relevant requirement in another way than described in an approved document, you should discuss this with the relevant building control body.

I'm wondering if increased thickness to, say 55mm, would make up for the 512kg/m3 density.

 

[Shaven]

Thanks Doug.

Interesting paragraph in that document:

Note that there may be other ways to comply with the requirements - there is no obligation to adopt any particular solution contained in an approved document. If you prefer to meet a relevant requirement in another way than described in an approved document, you should discuss this with the relevant building control body.

I'm wondering if increased thickness to, say 55mm, would make up for the 512kg/m3 density.

Speak to the local Building Control. In my experience they are pretty happy to consider an alternative means of compliance. As the regulation is for security I can’t see why that wouldn’t be an option.

 

[Doug71]

Pretty sure the whole security/density thing only applies if you are creating a new dwelling, for example a new build or barn conversion, doesn't apply to replacement.

If it's a listed building you might get away without complying to part L of the regs and the whole U value thing, although it's good to put in draught strips and insulation if you can.

Accoya is about 4 or 5 times the price of redwood, it is good stuff, infact it has been marketed so well they can't keep up with demand and there is a shortage of it at the moment.

 

[rafezetter]

My bro lives in an old house, part of it 1644. It's Listed. It belongs to his Partner.

The front door was replaced less than 10 years ago, but is already failing. It is very exposed and gets sun, wind rain, pestilence and plague.

The frame was not replaced and that is part of the problem.

Needless to say, it's a non-standard size.

Bro wants to make a replacement that will last, require little or preferably no maintenance and won't cost much. I've told him to look in the corner, behind the pile if Hens' Teeth.

Partner wants it made of oak, because oak is traditional, solid and classy, but I'm the second person to tell her that is not a good idea if she needs to paint it.

I've said that Russian Redwood would be a good choice. I've also been looking at Accoya. I've never used it.

Q's.

Would Accoya be a good choice? How big a price differential is there?

In a previous thread about doors, Sheffield Tony says there is a minimum density for materials, but I can't find any other mention of this.

I've told Bro & Partner to ask their BCO and Conservation Officer, but they are reluctant...

Any comments, please chaps?

Tell him to make a new front door entrance outside the part stuck in 1644 and move it to 2019, that might help with the pestilance and plague issues, the listing might need some added ballast elsewhere to counteract it.

I'd be interested in the rest of the replies though as I've recommended accoya on the strengths of the testimonials Richard Arnold has for it.

 

[Trevanion]

I've made and fitted doors made from Accoya up in the Preseli hills where they're so exposed that hardwood doors rot out within 5 years or so and so far there has been absolutely no problems at all. No twisting, no swelling or contracting, It's been great, to be honest. The only snag with Accoya at the moment the prices have shot up like wildfire and it costs just a little more than prime grade Oak, the last quote from Lathams timber was about £2100 a cubic meter, so it's pretty pricey stuff these days.

I've been told that Accoya actually yields better U values than hardwoods due to the lower density but that might be a load of cobblers, The British Woodworking Federation did tell me that though.

I personally would avoid Oak for exterior joinery unless it's the absolute top grade material, even the good stuff tends to crack and shake along its length even with heavy dosings of UV protection oil.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Doug71 is right:

a) There are dispensations for Listed Buildings;
b) Page iii states: "...for work on an existing building...the building must be no more unsatisfactory in relation to the requirements than before the work was carried out.."

I think Accoya would be great - but it would look much the best if painted (I assume the existing door is painted).

Cheers, W2S

PS I would strongly urge talking to the Conservation Officer - unauthorised work to a listed structure is - on the face of it - a criminal offence (unlike many other planning-related things).

 

[Steve Maskery]

It is currently painted.

A lot of the problem is that it is a wide door, and the frame is not very securely fixed. So when it gets slammed, as it frequently does, the whole assembly judders; door, frame, the lot. Joints are already cracked and there is rot in the frame.

I've drawn up what I would do if it were mine and not hindered by regs. It's not identical to what is currently there, but it is close, the same style, and, to my mind, at least, better proportioned.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Why have my images come out scrolling? I don't understand.

 

[RobinBHM]

Accoya would work well.

It is stable, but it still moves a little. It is also soft and brittle.

Ive stopped using it for outward opening doors if theres likely to a wind issue -Ive had to replace 2 due splits up the hing jamb.

Good practice is 3mm radius on external edges and V joints at stile / rail junctions

The panels can be made from either tricoya mdf or insulated door panels.

Accoya is available in 63mm x 125mm section for door stiles.

As an alternative I would recommend iroko, very durable and stable in service. Unfortunately these days the quality is pretty unreliable. I now make using engineered siberian larch -but I have to import it from Germany.

 

[RogerS]

What most of the guys have said.

Conservation aka Listed Building trumps Building Regs

Speak to the Conservation Office and get him/her onside. Ask their 'advice' but you can make a suggestion ie Accoya (which is the only realistic choice given your circumstances)

Repair the frame and stop it moving about in the surrounding masonry/stonework by better fixings.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Good practice is 3mm radius on external edges and V joints at stile / rail junctions

I've always put the radius on joinery, but what does the V achieve, please? I appreciate it probably looks neat, but presumably it serves a purpose?

 

[AndyT]

Richard Arnold doesn't post here much these days (he's mostly on Facebook and Instagram) but have a look at his commercial work here
http://www.richarnold.co.uk/gallery/

I think you'll find all those superb doors are accoya.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Steve - your drawings look very good - unsurprisingly! I notice your dims are in mm. Something I've learned from working on an old house is that the proportions are (usually) based on feet and inches - often taking advantage of the divisibility of 12. The old boys worked to relative measurements and ratios, rather than to "absolute" measurements. I wasted a lot of time, and sometimes material, before I realised that I should admit defeat and temporarily forget metric in some situations.

I wonder if you re-dimension/proportion based on feet and inches you might get an even more "harmonious" result?

Cheers, W2S

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Good practice is 3mm radius on external edges and V joints at stile / rail junctions

I've always put the radius on joinery, but what does the V achieve, please? I appreciate it probably looks neat, but presumably it serves a purpose?

I'm completely on-board with the radiused arrises (gives the paint a much better chance of survival). I've noticed these V joints on commercial joinery and wondered about them too. If there was an 'overhang' to 'encourage' a drip down beyond the centre-line of the joint I could see the benefit, but a V still exposes a thin joint line (in the middle) where the paint finish will crack first and where capillary action can allow water to be drawn into the joint. Cheers, W2S

 

[ScaredyCat]

I can fully understand their reluctance to speak to listings/conservation, You might remember we were trying to get a new front door for our listed property and Suffolk listings have been no help at all, in fact if anything they've been obstructive. I still don't have a new front door


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