A2 Plane Iron Users

[bugbear]

I think there would be fewer problems if sharpening was more widely regarded as the very simple process it is, rather than some arcane ritual that requires a "technique".

Absolutely! Still wouldn't solve the A2 prob; whatever technique, simple or arcane, you can't get a usable edge below 30 ish - according to many, but not all, users.

I thought 30 was your normal honing angle, so A2 = no problem.

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

I think there would be fewer problems if sharpening was more widely regarded as the very simple process it is, rather than some arcane ritual that requires a "technique".

It is a simple process, agreed, but different people use different techniques to get the end result and that's where a lot of the confusion arises, but the important thing is that end users obtain the edge they're looking for, by whatever means - Rob

 

[bugbear]

It is a simple process, agreed, but different people use different techniques to get the end result and that's where a lot of the confusion arises, but the important thing is that end users obtain the edge they're looking for, by whatever means - Rob

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn8vzTsnPps



BugBear

 

[yetloh]

I think there would be fewer problems if sharpening was more widely regarded as the very simple process it is, rather than some arcane ritual that requires a "technique".

It is a simple process, agreed, but different people use different techniques to get the end result and that's where a lot of the confusion arises, but the important thing is that end users obtain the edge they're looking for, by whatever means - Rob

Absolutely, Rob. My technique is quite differenr from yours, but so what.

So far as the Blue Spruce is concerned, a paring chisel that needs to be sharpened at 35 deg sounds to me like a contradiction in terms. I sharpen my Japanese paring chisels at 25 and have no problems.

Jim

 

[Jacob]

I think there would be fewer problems if sharpening was more widely regarded as the very simple process it is, rather than some arcane ritual that requires a "technique".

Absolutely! Still wouldn't solve the A2 prob; whatever technique, simple or arcane, you can't get a usable edge below 30 ish - according to many, but not all, users.

I thought 30 was your normal honing angle, so A2 = no problem.

BugBear

Yes I have no problem with it on the two plane blades I have, in spite of my peculiar sharpening techniques.

 

[bobbybirds]

bobbybirds - do you have a BS paring chisel also? If so, what angle do you sharpen it at, as I find the edge seems to crumble quite easily at any 'normal' paring angles.

Cheers,
Adam

I have a set of 4 DT paring chisels yes, and I have always kept them at 30 degrees with no micro-bevel. They pare well and no crumbling issues.

 

[Kalimna]

Thanks for that - may I ask a further question in that how long would you expect a sharpening to last whilst paring before needing redone? I know there are caveats with such a question, but a ball park figure would be good.

Many thanks,
Adam

 

[Modernist]

I think paring is impossible to estimate owing to the large number of variables but I have planed all morning with a 30 deg A2, cleaning up window frames in DF before needing to re-sharpen. When all the conditions are right it can be incredible with regard to edge life.

 

[Kalimna]

Thanks Brian - that also confirms what I already suspected. That I dont sharpen my plane blade enough

Cheers,
Adam

 

[bobbybirds]

Thanks for that - may I ask a further question in that how long would you expect a sharpening to last whilst paring before needing redone? I know there are caveats with such a question, but a ball park figure would be good.

Many thanks,
Adam

Hmmmmm.... Tough question to answer because of all the mitigating factors such as material, amount of paring needed depending on how well my sawing skills held up cutting tails etc... As an example, I just did a smaller case in cherry that has a total of 20 half blind DT's for which I used my 1/2 for all the paring except of the inside corners for which I used a fishtail. I fully sharpened it before starting and completed all on them with just some quick stropping on horsehide with green paste a half dozen times or so in between just to keep it extra sharp. No crumbling experienced...

 

[Kalimna]

BB - thats really quite helpful also. It gives me a good idea what to expect from a single sharpening. Also, it suggests that I might benefit from stropping inbetween sharpenings too.
One of the main problems I find when trying to learn woodworking without a direct tutor is what to expect from a tool, and how to use that tool effectively. Frequently reading from a book is difficult to translate into actions (in my hands at least!).

Thanks,
Adam

 

[bobbybirds]

BB - thats really quite helpful also. It gives me a good idea what to expect from a single sharpening. Also, it suggests that I might benefit from stropping inbetween sharpenings too.
One of the main problems I find when trying to learn woodworking without a direct tutor is what to expect from a tool, and how to use that tool effectively. Frequently reading from a book is difficult to translate into actions (in my hands at least!).

Thanks,
Adam

In my humble opinion, you can never really go wrong sharpening a bit extra when learning, just so you know how things perform when they are working at their peak and you get good practice. As you practice more, you will notice the little things that indicate to you that things are not performing up to expectations and you will start sharpening a bit less and less. I find stropping has made the biggest difference to me in regards to how often I put blade to stone. If things are starting to feel a bit dull it takes just a few swipes freehand on the green compound impregnated horse hide strap and you're popping hairs again...

 

[Jacob]

So have we answered WB's OP and shown that there is nothing wrong with these parrots, apart from the fact that some of them have been found to be dead? :lol:

 

[yetloh]

Couldn't have put it better myself, Jacob.

Jim

 

[woodbrains]

So have we answered WB's OP and shown that there is nothing wrong with these parrots, apart from the fact that some of them have been found to be dead? :lol:

I didn't ever say there was anything wrong, I actually quite like A2 steel plane irons in their place. I have no A2 chisels to comment on those. As far as answering my question; yes and no. It still seems there is a definite split between those that like A2 and those that don't, so I wasn't under any false impression there. As to what causes the difference, I still don't know, there wasn't enough data, only more conjecture and no conclusion can be drawn on that.

There are a few things which spring to mind about some of the comments. Is there anything wrong with a paring chisel that has been honed to 30-35 deg? The conventional wisdom is that a chisel is sharpened to the lowest angle that will hold up, steel or work dependant. It doesn't matter what the steel is or even if you know what it is. Sharpening in a ball park of 25deg and if it doesn't hold up well, increase incrementally until it does. The number you finish up with is not important in itself, other than for future repeatability. Just because some chisels hold up at lower angles does not necessarily mean that those that need higher are somehow defective. You could argue that the lower angle requires less effort to push, and I would agree to a point, but if that edge dulls just a trifle (but still eminently usable, I don't meen blunt), the initial advantage is perhaps lost. Let us suppose 5 paring strokes took the edge off a carbon steel blade to the level of a slightly less acute but well sharpened A2. Then all things are equal in terms of resistance to the cut, or effort to push the tool, if you prefer. But the A2 will remain at that level for much longer. It may just require a new way of thinking. I am ceratin that comments about sharpening not being arcane were made in the bronze age, when the bloke that invented iron pointed out that wafting a bit of flint over the edge of the new stuff just wasn't going to work the same as before. It is different stuff and can be advantageous or not, dependant on the job at hand, how well it is sharpened (and it does require a little more fussing and knowledge to do so) and the mindset of the user. What it is not, is exactly the same as the stuff we have already, but better!

Mike.

 

[bugbear]

There are a few things which spring to mind about some of the comments. Is there anything wrong with a paring chisel that has been honed to 30-35 deg? The conventional wisdom is that a chisel is sharpened to the lowest angle that will hold up, steel or work dependant.

I think a lot of the trouble and confusion comes from the fact that for many, many years there was only one kind of steel.

So what we think of as "perfectly normal, usual, obvious (etc) sharpening" is really a sharpening system evolved for a particular steel, long ago, and now taken for granted.

This extends to technique, bevel angles, sharpening frequency, use of grindstones, lubricant and choice of abrasives.

Introduce a new steel with different properties and things are up for grabs again.

If you think A2 is a "bit interesting" take a look at the highly resistant steels coming over to woodwork from the world of knives.

BugBear

 

[woodbrains]

If you think A2 is a "bit interesting" take a look at the highly resistant steels coming over to woodwork from the world of knives.

BugBear

Hello,

T10 steel, the stuff many of us have tried in either Quiangsheng planes, or as replacement irons in their regular planes, was originally used for swords in China, I believe. There is something 'different' about this steel, too, though not as marked as A2, it definately feels different on the stone to Clifton irons, say. I notice Ray Iles does some D2 plane irons as well, though I am loathe to try them at the minute, since my Japanese stone won't sharpen that and I don't want to invest in diamond or ceramic stones at the minute, to give the stuff a try. I would be interested to hear what any one who has used this thinks. While I think about it, does anyone use any of the powder metal plane irons Holtey produces--if he indeed still does--as replacements for Bailey type planes. Now who thinks sharpening is simple?

Mike.

 

[jimi43]

I put a QS T10 in my 100 year old infill panel plane and it has been honed a couple of times....

Not because it needed it...because I was bored and thought it needed it!

I had a few jobs to do with it the other day and am still surprised how long it holds its edge...how sharp I can make it and how well it has settled into its new home.

Jim

 

[JohnCee]

T10 steel, the stuff many of us have tried in either Quiangsheng planes, or as replacement irons in their regular planes, was originally used for swords in China, I believe. There is something 'different' about this steel, too, though not as marked as A2, it definately feels different on the stone to Clifton irons, say. I notice Ray Iles does some D2 plane irons as well, though I am loathe to try them at the minute, since my Japanese stone won't sharpen that and I don't want to invest in diamond or ceramic stones at the minute, to give the stuff a try. I would be interested to hear what any one who has used this thinks. While I think about it, does anyone use any of the powder metal plane irons Holtey produces--if he indeed still does--as replacements for Bailey type planes. Now who thinks sharpening is simple?

Mike.

I still think it's simple. I have no difficulty sharpening my Ray Iles D2 irons with waterstones.
The only thing that makes sharpening plane irons difficult sometimes is when they are warped. The more exotic steels can then cause nightmares trying to get the backs flat. I gave up on Quangsheng irons for this reason.

 

[woodbrains]

I still think it's simple. I have no difficulty sharpening my Ray Iles D2 irons with waterstones.
The only thing that makes sharpening plane irons difficult sometimes is when they are warped. The more exotic steels can then cause nightmares trying to get the backs flat. I gave up on Quangsheng irons for this reason.

Hi,

I'm surprised at you having trouble with Quiansheng irons. The few I have were the flattest and finest polished from new as I could hope. I think only the LV irons I have were marginally better and I mean marginal. It is also funny that the chrome content in the D2 is very high which should make it impossible to get a really keen edge, it is almost stainless steel, and the silicon and Vanadium make it hard, too. The T 10 should be infinitely easier to sharpen and the edge much keener. I don't care what you say, there is more to this sharpening malarchy than meets the eye.

Perhaps you should have sent the Quiangsheng blade back as a dud. Workshop Heaven seem to have the best QS irons around, if you did not get yours there, you should give them another go.

Mike.